A/L and bank holidays - new system, is it unfair to part-timers?

[Candlestickchic]

Hi, I wonder if any HR-minded MNers can help me understand whether I’m right in thinking the way my organisation deals with bank hols is unfair to part-timers?

A/L and bank hols are rolled up together and as I work 30hrs a week I receive 0.8 of a full-timer’s allowance (so far so good). We work a 37.5 hour week so I get a total of 210hrs.

Then, at the start of the year, HR apply all the bank hols to the software system, so they get deducted from your total allowance. They deduct all bank holidays, including ones that fall on non-working days. They have a system where 7.5hrs is deducted for full-timers, 6hrs for 0.8 wte, 4.5hrs for 0.6 wte and so on as a sliding scale. (Not sure what I think of this but it’s not my main issue...)

I work Tues-Fri, so to my mind I am losing out. In 21/22 there are 6 Monday bank hols, so I am being deducted 36 hours paid leave allowance for days when I don’t work anyway. On a week with a bank holiday Monday I would still work my full 30 hours, while being deducted 6hours. A colleague who works Mon-Thurs would work 22.5hrs, having 7.5hr off on the Monday (for a 6hr deduction).

Sorry for the essay but this is driving me mad as it feels really unfair. I have queried it with the HR staff member who deals with this, but we seem always to talk at cross purposes. She says the old system (think NHS) was unfair because someone not working Mondays would get an extra 30 hours leave to use at other times. I don’t agree - yes not working Mondays would give you more flexibility as you could use those hours whenever you want, but you would would not be getting more paid leave.

I am starting to think I will just change my days so I am not disadvantaged by the system, but equally it makes me uncomfortable that part-timers across the organisation might be losing out on paid leave unfairly. Have I got this wrong? Happy to be told I have, as at least then I can get this bee out of my bonnet and don’t have to get into a row with HR! Thanks!

You are correct, they are not handling part time work and bank holidays in the way they should.

If you work. 0.8 fte then you are entitled to 0.8 of bank hol allowance plus 0.8 of AL

Depends how you make up your hours. If you 0.8 of each day you are entitled to the same number of days as full time because you are only off 0.8 of the day

If you work full days then you will get less bank hols because you are using more of the allowance each time..

If you don't work a Monday you should be allowed to use your allowance on other days

In short you shouldn't be disadvantaged by being part time

I work 0.8 and are annual leave and public holidays are all turned into hours. I don't work a Friday so wouldn't be expected to take any leave on that day. The new system isn't fair.

yes its unfair. They should only remove the bank holidays that you should have worked and didn't.

I am 1 day a week, but I can move days around. So I get all normal holiday plus bank holidays (so say 28 days total) and I get 1/5 of that as my allowance. if I don';t work 1 day a week, I would use up holiday and if I just work Tuesday over Monday I do not use up holiday.

Its more flexible for me, as less "forced" holidays. But of course I only get 1/5 the pay that I used to get.

With apologies to any HR people on MN, who I am sure are fine, but, in my experience, (as a Finance Director) all HR people given this task are crap at it.

So, it is obvious to anyone with half a brain that if you do not work Monday, you should not be losing any holiday entitlement for bank holiday weeks.

There really should be no controversy over this.

Get some finance people involved, OP, as they can usually add up and do fractions.

I get so annoyed when employees lose out this way...

Thank you all so much for reading my essay and commenting! I feel relieved I’m not going mad. The system has been in place for nearly a year and so I was starting to think it was my misunderstanding as i can only assume no one else has questioned it.

The new annual leave policy which accompanied the change, states that the deduction should be made on ‘days when an employee takes paid time off on a bank hol as part of their basic week’. I think that’s correct? I think the problem is the way the policy is being applied on the HR system. Whenever I query it I am referred back to the policy by the staff member responsible for implementing it. It is so totally not my style, but I think I will have to be brave and raise a grievance so someone else in HR takes a look.

I am not sure I’ll get anywhere, as if they admit I am right there will be lots of staff that have to be given back leave that was wrongly deducted in 20/21. But I think I should try...

Obviously if p/t staff work on bh days, then a proportion of hours will be used.

Sounds like you have a lot of Computer Says No types.

Good luck/1

Thanks topcat, your post upthread made me laugh! Our finance director was on the steering group for the policy, and I would love to ask for their comments, but don’t want to undermine the HR lady involved. They have had a nightmare year managing things through Covid, and are so busy. But equally as a lone parent with 13 weeks school hols to cover I can’t afford to lose out on A/L. Plus I bought an extra week last year as no chance of furlough for me and I though I might combust without a bit more leave. So losing a week when I paid to buy an extra would particularly rankle!

But you are not paid for Mondays, so you are not taking paid time off on a bank holiday, that is what I would be replying.

What is the basic holiday allowance? Is it more than statutory because that would be 210 hours for a full time employee?

Hi April, yes that’s exactly what I’ve said to her. But not really getting anywhere. I get an explanation of why they are allocating 6hrs, or how my allowance was calculated in the first place.

Yes the basic allowance is 27 days A/L plus 8 bank holidays, so it is fairly generous (we are not NHS but closely aligned).

@Candlestickchic

Hi April, yes that’s exactly what I’ve said to her. But not really getting anywhere. I get an explanation of why they are allocating 6hrs, or how my allowance was calculated in the first place.

Yes the basic allowance is 27 days A/L plus 8 bank holidays, so it is fairly generous (we are not NHS but closely aligned).

Noted re the holiday allowance, just trying to think of any far fetched reason why they would think it makes sense to deduct holiday allowance for a non working day.

You definitely need to escalate / raise a grievance if need be as they are absolutely wrong and defying logic as somebody else mentioned.

I worked part time for years. Don't any more But the way it worked for me was that I added up my full time holiday entitlement and all the bank holidays, turned it into hours, applied the relevant discount (eg times by 0.8 if working 4/5 days) then used my holiday entitlement in hours to take every bank holiday which fell on a working day. Eg 7.5 hours for every non-Monday bank holiday.

What was left in hours was my entitlement for the year.

I always had to maintain a separate spreadsheet as despite being instructed to deal with my holidays as described above, our HR portal didn't allow you to take bank holidays as holiday! It was programmed to assume everyone was full time. Then I went 4.5 days out of 5 (so had every other Friday off) which totally blew everyone's brains!!

I'm now full time but the system still doesn't quite work for me. Some glitch which is a hangover from my part time working.

I work for a large multinational and it always amazes me how this relatively simple but very important process can't work correctly.

Mind you, you would be amazed how many people cannot, for example, fill out a holiday form correctly.

Our form asks for inclusive dates.

But, often, if people want Tuesday and Wednesday off they will put Tuesday to Thursday, on the basis that Tuesday is the first day of holiday, and Thursday is the first day back! I then ask them if they want 3 days taken off their entitlement!

Bang head on desk at that one, @topcat2014 - how can "the first day back" ever be relevant to a holiday request

Fingers crossed I have uploaded a screen shot which should help. NWD = Non-woking Day i.e. not paid for like a Saturday or Sunday.

Non-working day - not non woking day

This happened to me, I managed to get deducted for being 0.6 and for working fewer days. Took ages to sort out too. Good luck!

Bank holidays seem to be miscalculated for part timers regularly!

Thanks Margarita. What’s the source for that table please? Or is it your own organisation’s?

See, the more I think about it I also have a problem with the way they have a sliding scale of hours to apply on each bank hol. The HR lady said that it was unfair that someone working part-time including Mondays would end up having more hours deducted than they were allocated for bank hols (much like employee B in your table). Therefore in their new system they deduct 4.5hrs hours for each bank hol that a person doing 0.6wte takes (0.6 x 7.5hrs).

(I’m setting aside the issue of deducting them on non-working days for a minute, which we all seem to agree is nonsensical.)

So doesn’t that give part-timers an advantage over full-timers? If I were to work 0.6wte and do Mon, Tues and Fri, then in 21/22 I will get 8 x 7.5hr paid time off work for the bank hols. Which is the same as a full-timer. My allowance will only be deducted by 8 x 4.5 hrs so 34 hours. My allowance will marry up with the deductions (8 lots of 4.5 entitlement and the same deducted). But the benefit I’ll have actually received would be 7.5hrs x 8 of paid time off. Or am I over-thinking this? I think I’m getting slightly obsessed.....

Ask for your holiday pay!
Say you've worked your full week (sorry can't remember your hours) which you have been paid for but you'd like your holiday pay for the 6 hours holiday you've been deducted as well please.

I'd go above her head, you are getting nowhere and losing out.

I’ve sent you a PM.

No if you worked Mon Tues Friday your entitlement would be
8 x 7.5 x 0.6. If all 8 fell on your working days you would lose 8 x 7.5 so you would have less net leave. Overall you get 0.6 of a full timer but depending on your working days you can find more of your leave is taken on specified days (Bank Holidays) rather than when you choose.

If you work the same hours every day, and the company opens the same hours every day, you can still work in days.

Raise a grievance and get finance people involved.

This is indirect sex discrimination as I bet most PT staff are female

We do have a lot of shift workers so work in hours, though my days are regular. I’m back in tomorrow so will speak to my manager and tell her I’m planning to raise a grievance if it can’t be resolved any other way. I hope she understands what I’m talking about!

I think if you’re PT but your usual working days fall on bank hols you’re probably ok. But if you don’t work bank hols (esp Mondays) you’re shafted. Which is ironic as it even says in the policy that the bank hols are rolled up with A/L and prorated to avoid any differences based on working days!

Not sure how long it’ll take but I’ll update when I get a resolution! Thanks everyone

As others have said, this completely wrong. Only bank holidays which fall on your working days should be deducted from your leave. Assuming you work 7.5 hours per day you should ONLY have the following days deducted as bank holidays

Fri 1st January - 7.5 hours
Fri 2nd April - 7.5 hours
Tues 28th December - 7.5 hours

This is a total off 22.5 hours deducted for bank holidays which would leave you with 187.5 hours of annual leave. However, going by your employers logic they are deducting 48 hours of bank holidays which leaves you at a disadvantage and missing out on 25.5 hours of annual leave. You wouldn't take any other Monday off as annual leave so why would they think you should take Bank Holiday Mondays . They clearly don't know what they're doing. I've attached an example from Citizens Advice which you can show your employer if that helps.