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Voluntary Redundancy Offered - Now It is an Exit Package?! Advise Please

285 replies

mummytippy · 15/01/2021 11:01

In short I have been off work since September suffering from anxiety and panic attacks. I opened communication with my employer regarding occupational health provision and they told me they did not have any, but would welcome my GPs recommendation. My Dr is recommending that I work from home. My employer has been telling me this isn't possible. I do accounts admin and have been told by the company's IT consultants it is possible via remote working on a laptop. I submitted a reasonable adjustment request and been turned down. The reason - logistics of transporting paperwork by other staff members- too costly, too time consuming but it can be scanned and emailed... or posted. Most of the company's suppliers and customers email their documents. Also, contamination? I will contaminate paperwork in my home? I've not heard of Covid 19 being transferable on paper?

Just before Christmas I was asked if I wanted to consider voluntary redundancy (also told strictly confidential) and was made a financial offer. I made it clear I didn't want to take such a redundancy. I want to work, but wfh. I was then told I would be informed of any decisions made. I heard nothing and after Christmas I contacted my employer to ask the latest on the redundancies, which process are they following and who does it affect. They replied they were exploring whether I would be interested in an 'exit package' in case I might not be going back to work. I feel completely mislead and spent the entire Christmas period (while they were closed) worrying about their decision and this certainly hasn't help with my panic attacks and anxiety. Any advise on this matter would be greatly appreciated. TIA.

OP posts:
user184628462 · 17/01/2021 11:16

They can dismiss someone who is signed off work. They absolutely can, and it seems they will.

What your GP has put on the fit note re WFH is just a suggestion. If they can't or won't accommodate it then you stay off sick.

And if there is then no prospect of you being able to return to work - which there isn't - they can dismiss you.

How compassionately you feel they have or have not treated you doesn't come into it.

They can dismiss you.

Bartlet · 17/01/2021 11:17

The goalposts haven’t changed with regard to working from home. Your management has been consistent. You seem to have latched onto a probably throwaway comment from someone in IT about it being feasible from a technology perspective. They are not your boss and that is not the only consideration.

Why can’t you see that?

mummytippy · 17/01/2021 11:18

@smariewrtr

Do you want to work from home for childcare? Not saying you don't have the other problems but is childcare a driver.....
It's mainly due to having panic attacks and anxiety but I my child is now remote learning as of 3rd January, so not in school.
OP posts:
user184628462 · 17/01/2021 11:20

I'm looking for constructive advice -- not insults.

You have ignored the question as to what would need to happen for you to be able to work in the office? What support would you need?

Because being able to return to the office to do your job is the only way your employment will continue.

So either you need to engage in how to negotiate your exit package or you need to engage with planning a return to the office.

Fixating on anything else is not constructive on your part.

Bartlet · 17/01/2021 11:21

OP - what do you think will help you come to terms with the situation? You’ve not set foot in the place and haven’t been working for almost a year so this surely can’t come as a surprise to you that they don’t want you.

Do you have concerns about money or are you worried about finding another job?

titchy · 17/01/2021 11:25

I'm looking for constructive advice -- not insults.

You've had huge amounts of constructive advice. You're ignoring it because it doesn't suit you.

You're going to lose your job. You need to face that and work out what the best way for that to happen is. For example being Sacked will mean you qualify for benefits but get no lump sum. Taking an exit package may mean you don't qualify for benefits immediately but you will have some tax feee cash in your bank account.

daisypond · 17/01/2021 11:27

Look, you’ve got in a situation where you have been at home for a long time while being paid. That is extremely unusual. But you’ve probably got so used to it that you think it’s normal and it’s your right. But it’s not. Things are going to change one way or another. You need to salvage the best you can out of the situation.

mummytippy · 17/01/2021 11:29

@Iamthewombat

You’ve had some excellent advice on this thread, which I’ve been following with interest. Genuinely excellent, from posters who know their stuff and actually have saved you a fortune in advice from an independent employment law solicitor.

Take the money.

It doesn’t matter what Mumsnet thinks about contamination of paperwork sent by post. What are you going to do? Show your management team the opinion of Maureen from Derby?

It doesn’t matter what “IT” said “in earshot of management in March” about it being possible for some employees to work from home. Since you have already told us that HR in the company is one person doubling up as office manager, I suspect that “IT” is one person too, not a fully staffed team of systems experts with high tech servers at their disposal. What he or she said in March, and in whose earshot, is irrelevant. You must see that?

Take the money. Spare yourself the dismissal process, which is coming. Possibly sooner than you think.

The IT consultants are a professional external company who have set similar things up for many other businesses. It is my boss who is choosing not allow it.
OP posts:
TitsOot4Xmas · 17/01/2021 11:31

It's mainly due to having panic attacks and anxiety but I my child is now remote learning as of 3rd January, so not in school.

I’ve asked a couple of times how you would WFH and homeschool the child you say needs constant supervision but I don’t believe you’ve answered.

It’s a moot point anyway.

You weren’t happy about being furloughed in March, (but schools were closed so what else would have worked?)
You weren’t happy about the prospect of being in furloughed due to childcare.

The school situation is the same. Your employer knows this. They know agreeing to WFH for you will lead to other WFH requests and a possible reduction in productivity.

Others are right. They’ve managed without you for a year. They are clearly not desperate to have you come back and have started documenting your contact. They’ll be heading for dismissal in some form. And soon.

TitsOot4Xmas · 17/01/2021 11:34

The IT consultants are a professional external company who have set similar things up for many other businesses. It is my boss who is choosing not allow it.

They don’t know all of the aspects of your job. They can’t magically turn paper records into digital ones without human intervention and a scanner.

Eg my husband is an IT consultant. I was whinging about something and he suggested a solution. It would work, technically, but there is no way the solution would be allowed on NHS servers. So it could be done but there would be valid reasons for my employer to refuse it. Ergo, wouldn’t happen.

You really have lost sight of your responsibilities under the employment contract you signed.

daisypond · 17/01/2021 11:36

Yes, your boss is choosing not to allow it - as he can. There is nothing you can do about that. He is within his rights. Even if all the IT experts in the world said it was fine and your boss didn’t, it’s still the boss who gets his way. That is the law.

So, your possible outcomes are:
take the exit package.
be sacked for capability.
be made compulsory redundant.
go back to work in the office.

You might not be able to choose which of these outcomes you will get.

VodselForDinner · 17/01/2021 11:59

My GP is advising wfh best for me

Your GP does not get to determine how your employers operate their business.

The IT consultants are a professional external company who have set similar things up for many other businesses

The IT company does not get to determine how your employers operate their business.

You do not get to determine how your employers operate their business.

Really, OP, you have been most frustrating to deal with.

You are unable to continue working from home. Your employers won’t allow it, nor are they obligated to. A note from your GP, the Chief Medical Officer, or Prince Philip’s proctologist won’t change that.

If you want to continue your employment, you’re going to have to turn up to your place of employment, or take the payment and go.

You don’t have other options.

Lougle · 17/01/2021 11:59

@mummytippy you are essentially sticking your fingers in your ears and closing your eyes because you are hearing something you don't want to hear.
www.gov.uk/government/publications/fit-note-guidance-for-employers-and-line-managers/getting-the-most-out-of-the-fit-note-guidance-for-employers-and-line-managers

  1. If your employee is not fit for work, or if they may be fit for work but you can’t agree any changes, use the fit note as evidence for your sick pay procedures.

This is the clause that applies here. You may be fit for work, but the employer cannot agree changes that you will accept to allow you to work (and you also have a child at home). They can now use their sickness procedures, which means that you can be dismissed on the grounds of capability.

Your time is running out and your options are limited. WFH is not an option.

Potterylady13 · 17/01/2021 12:06

Sending paperwork in the post is not secure and could be lost. Someone has got to send it to you and likewise someone needs to sort when you send it back. Are you leaving the house? Can you send it back? If you are leaving the house why can't you go into work - you sound like you are having panic attacks at home so WFH is clearly stressful. Who will look after your son when you go back to work?

Aprilx · 17/01/2021 12:06

I’m looking for constructive advice not insults.

I don’t think you are, I think you want somebody to say you are legally entitled to work from home. Well you are not, regardless of what your GP thinks. Organisations are entitled to not have their economic progress hindered, your company have said your desired adjustments are not economically viable. That is the end of it.

You have had pages of constructive advice but you have chosen to ignore all of it. It is no wonder some posters are losing patience.

Take the settlement or VR or whatever they want to call it, it doesn’t matter. You are going to be leaving, your employer no longer requires you, you might as well leave with a financial package.

RaspberryCoulis · 17/01/2021 12:14

I'm looking for constructive advice -- not insults.

No you're not.

You have been given BAGS of constructive advice, but it's not what you want to hear so you are choosing to ignore it.

You are not going to be working from home in this job. Full stop. End of story. Never. Not happening. You need to get your head around that rather than going into irrelevant side lines about what an IT person did or didn't say and furlough.

Your choices are clear.

  1. Go back to work in the office OR
  2. Take their financial offer.

There is no other discussion to be had. If you don't take either of those two options they will go though disciplinary and sack you.

mummytippy · 17/01/2021 12:23

@MarmiteWine

If I've understood it correctly from previous threads, you are contracted to work 21 hours over 3 days. Have you considered whether you would be able to work the 21 hours across 4 or 5 days in the office instead? The shorter days may be better for your mental health.

Looking at the bigger picture, the costs to your employer of allowing you to work from home will almost certainly outweigh the benefits, especially as a part-time worker. This doesn't mean by the way that they'd be discriminating against you, just that the cost-benefit ratio would work in their favour as the additional costs won't reduce with your part-time hours.

  • Laptop/desktop PC with encryption software, and probably VPN too
  • secure storage cabinet or similar if you'll have paperwork at home
  • secure disposal facilities for the paperwork
  • costs involved in getting paperwork to you, and back to the office if required. This could be time used by another member of staff to scan or deliver the work to you, or perhaps the costs of a courier service. It's unlikely the employer would just put a large envelope in the post to you if the paperwork relates to customers. What would happen if it went astray?Consider the GDPR implications of customer data leaving the office unnecessarily.
  • potential costs of other equipment you need to work safely from home as a designated homeworker. For example a suitable chair, desk etc. It's one thing 'making the best of things' sitting working at your dining table in the middle of a pandemic but your employer would have additional responsibilities if you were a designated homeworker.
  • home visit(s) from your manager and/or IT department for risk assessments, setting up equipment etc.

That's just the logistics of actually getting you set up to work from home. That's a lot to lay out before they've even considered whether you can do the job effectively from home.

You've said a couple of times that WFH would allow you to work your contracted hours, which you're not well enough to do in the office but haven't responded to other posts asking why this is the case. How do you anticipate that your management of your panic attacks in the office would differ from at home? I believe you've said that you were on furlough, so away from the office, when the panic attacks began, and haven't returned to the office since. It doesn't seem therefore that the attacks are related to the office itself.

What is the back story to the furlough? You've said you were put on furlough 'without being notified'. Do you mean that in lockdown 1 you were sent home, unable to work, but expected to be paid in full for doing nothing when your employer was entitled to furlough you? You appear to have a very self-centred view of the world.

Ultimately though it does seem like you want your employer to make all the concessions while you make none and just dig your heels in. As a long term strategy that's simply not going to work. Have you thought about what you'll do when your SSP entitlement runs out, assuming you haven't been dismissed before then?

I hear all you are saying and appreciate your very detailed post.

The background to the furloughing is a colleague told me not to go in work the morning after Boris's speech. I heard nothing direct from work.

I then text my boss and asked who confirmed I was on furlough on 80 pc. I then asked for my payslips to be posted which they were.
I then heard nothing and had nothing in writing to confirm, details as to who, for how long, how much, and best way to communicate etc.
I have been there the longest out of all office staff and am the most experienced. They had just recruited a newly qualified staff member to do the same tasks as myself.
When it came to staff going back, I pointed out my ds was not in school and asked could I wfh. My boss said they'd ask the MD and come back to me. The reply was they'd keep me on furlough.
I then started with the panic attacks and anxiety. I was actually admitted to hospital by ambulance with a suspected heart attack as my heart was racing. After a day in A&E being monitored I was discharged with some medication and confirmation it had been a panic attack. I believe the uncertainty created by the lack of communication from work, reduced pay etc may have contributed to this happening.
Then my Dad became very ill.

At the point my Dad went into hospital my boss text me asking me to again return to work. I told them my Dad was ill and was in hospital so I was kept on furlough.
Then my boss contacted me to ask me to return to work and gave a date. I informed her of his deterioration and asked if they could email me the risk assessment for the office etc and they replied by text saying everything was safe but no details.
A few days later they tried to phone me but I couldn't speak to them as my Dad had worsened further and with no visiting allowed by any hospitals my phone line was basically open to my Dad and the hospital. My Dad then sadly passed away. Coincidently this was the date I'd been given previously go back to work.
A week later I was asked to return to work. I informed work my Dad had passed away. I got condolences back by text. I had 2 weeks annual leave booked, but by this time I had spoken with my GP as was experiencing a lot of upset and more anxiety and panic attacks and they gave me a sicknote. It was strange as it was almost like my boss had forgotten about my leave. I did feel very forgotten about.
The panic attacks and anxiety worsened and my GP felt it would be best managed in my home rather than the workplace. Later I did ask my employer what provision there was with OH and options in the workplace and they confirmed there wasn't any.

I understand the implications of what is involved in getting working from home up and running and I do have a shredder, printer, secure cabinet etc as I used to work as a SE bookkeeper from home.

I just feel that it is the MD more than my boss and they don't know how I do my job... technically I mean as they don't.

I did actually speak to the EASS yesterday am and they have said to go back to my employer to ask they reconsider me wfh and to give full details on how it will benefit them and to detail all of my role and how it can be done without impacting on other staff members because it can.

Obviously I do not want to jeopardise my job and now my ds is home again remote learning and he can't be left either.

It seems to be becoming more and more complicated.

OP posts:
andweallsingalong · 17/01/2021 12:26

Just to add to the advice of the experts.

I was dismissed due to being too unwell to do my job. I qualified for a reasonable adjustment. My disability was even due to an accident at work. I tried phased returns. I tried less hours. I was offered a job with less hours and an understanding boss who had zero expectations other than I turn up and do what I could - very kind but the reduced hours wouldn't have paid the mortgage so I had to turn that down.

I asked for a reasonable adjustment of more time to to recover, but a) it wasn't guaranteed that I would and b) they needed someone in my role straight away.

OH were amazing, not only supportive but realistic in telling me to STOP trying, I'd done my best, I might be dismissed but that wasn't my fault and couldn't be helped.

From there things moved very quickly, they'd exhausted all options, had decided not to agree my reasonable adjustment request on valid grounds and so moved straight to dismissal procedure. I wasn't offered any sort of package.

You have 3 choices :-

  1. Go to work
  2. Take the package
  3. Be dismissed (expect the letter starting this process to have been sent or be sent in days)
ShutUpaYourFace · 17/01/2021 12:32

My guess is OP you want to wfh to continue to take 100% salary.
When furloughed did you drop to 80%?
The pay cut is hard but employers don't have to top up salaries.
If your child is home, how can you wfh and home school? My employer won't let me work from home because I have 2 under 10. Fair enough I wouldn't be able to give 100% (I applaud those who do)

If you are anxious your employer should be telling you what they have done to make your place of work Covid secure, assuming this is the reason you want to work from home? It's frightening at the moment for everyone going out to work but if the right precautions are taken your risk is low.
I've worked full time in office since April. No one has caught Covid.

Have you considered flexible furlough to allow you to look after your child during lockdown3? Could you go into the office a couple of days a week as a start? Do you have any help or a childcare bubble?

We are all in different situations but the employer has every right to expect you to go in and the decision on wfh is theirs alone. Listen to what others are saying here. You are doing a great job of loosing your job. Going round in circles is not helping anyone.

user184628462 · 17/01/2021 12:32

Your son is 14.

daisypond · 17/01/2021 12:33

OP, please read carefully what @andweallsingalong says.

Bartlet · 17/01/2021 12:33

You are flogging a dead horse with this. How many more times do you need to be told that you can’t work from home? You are not in a specialist role and could easily be replaced tomorrow. They’ve managed without you for almost a year so why would they bend over backwards to accommodate you? What do you offer that makes it worth changing their approach to WFH?

naomi81 · 17/01/2021 12:35

Get an employment solicitor and take exit package, if you have been there a while don't let them fob you off. It's terrible and I don't agree with what they are doing and find a working from home job that you would like to do Xx

VodselForDinner · 17/01/2021 12:36

It seems to be becoming more and more complicated

No, you’re making it more and more complicated.

The background to the furloughing is a colleague told me not to go in work the morning after Boris's speech. I heard nothing direct from work

I’m surprised you were not disciplined for this, TBH.

Between GP, IT consultants, and other colleagues, you seem to listen to everyone but your actual employer.

I did actually speak to the EASS yesterday am and they have said to go back to my employer to ask they reconsider me wfh and to give full details on how it will benefit them and to detail all of my role and how it can be done without impacting on other staff members because it can

You have not demonstrated how this would benefit your company. It is very clear that someone else would have to take on additional duties to scan or post documents to you.

So, what are you going to do next?

TitsOot4Xmas · 17/01/2021 12:46

The panic attacks have happened whilst at home not needing to think about work.

How is adding to your daily stress by WFH on top of homeschooling going to increase your likelihood of panic attacks?

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