Daughter received disciplinary invitation for Gross Miscinduct she's 16!!!!!

[UggyPow]

I am in shock - DD works for a small local business worked there for 14 months, bosses love her lots of promotions, training & development - keep talking about long term career to her & training options.
Out of the blue an email received inviting her to a disciplinary for gross negligence, in regards to care of the customers, it refers to policy & procedures which she has never seen & doesn't tell her what it is about, no investigation, nothing.
I have looked at ACAS & it clearly says to talk to employee first but does allow for going straight to disciplinary but says they must provide suffucient notice less than 48 hours given (Acas states 5 working days).
But it doesn't tell her anything about the situation or circumstances concerned.
ACAs clearly says as part of any investigation evidence must be gathered from all sides - this definitely hasn't happened as she has no idea what it's even about.
It also says the letter should clearly state what it regards to so the person can prepare.
Oh and email is signed cheers managers nickname
She gets her GCSE results on Thursday & is already incredibly stressed out with the Chaos of that.
Not sure what to do, worried if go in all guns blazing could wreck daughter's job which she loves but how they they call a disciplinary without telling the person what it is about!!!!!

@AdoptAdaptImprove I guess that if she identified him by whatever means she would be saying that it was to prevent it happening again.

The landlady spoke to the whole table & told them them were inappropriate & asked them to finish their drinks and leave.

My second Jesus wept of the day - I would have booted them straight out.

CCTV should have been kept from both incidents. It sounds like it was the landlords issue (the second time) and not your daughters at all so he may be covering his tracks.

Does she work for an umbrella company or does the landlord own the premises outright? Do think of looking up their HR policies as well...

Make it really clear that you believe this to be a discriminatory process based on her sex. She was targeted and assaulted because of her sex and any disciplinary process based on that assault is necessarily discriminatory too. Spell ot out because otherwise she's not been there long enough for protection against unfair dismissal. Other than that maybe check your home insurance policy for cover. And attend the meeting and keep quiet (apart from the above). Make copious notes, agree to nothing a.nd ask if they mind you recording it (take a recording device). If they refuse to allow that make sure you note it.

OP - as she is still a child I would say that you SHOULD go with her.

Do as much prep beforehand, and if there are any problems with how they've handled it (it sounds like they haven't given enough info, enough time, shouldn't have told her about the other barmaid being called in, and have maybe even made a decision before investigating etc.)

They did attempt to protect her from sexual assault, but are now threatening to dismiss her for that. Legally, she is a CHILD. A child who was sexually assaulted on their premises during her working hours. And they think that she is the one who needs to be answering questions? Unless this is them going through a process to fact find, because they have to respond to a complaint, she really shouldn't have to deal with this.

I'd prepare a huge list of questions for them to answer and I would make it very clear that a child is not expected to deal with this situation alone.
Given that they haven't given enough notice or tried to find out info from both sides, I would even say that she'll listen to their questions, make a note of them, and give her answers after she's had further legal advice.

Make them sweat.

@UggyPow

I have a bit more information & i will clarify other bits.

The first night pubs were allowed to open my daughter worked at a couple of points she went to a particular table a man kept trying to grab her hands so she held them against her stomach, he continued to try to grab her hands. Her also grabbed her face, the owners & landlords witnessed this - they asked my daughter to stay behind the bar which she then did & he spoke to them.
I had taken my daughter her dinner & been invited by the landlord to stay for a drink, after he spoke to them I heard him saying to the others at the table that it was ridiculous for a barmaid to object to being touched & it was part of the job!!!!
I went to the toilet & quietly advised one of the other men at the table who had said hello to my partner on arrival that she was only 16.
Later the other girl was collecting glasses & the same man touched her on the back of the leg deliberately. The landlady spoke to the whole table & told them them were inappropriate & asked them to finish their drinks and leave.
I believe they did.
Early August a person my daughter believed to be the same gentleman entered the bar, she stated to another member of bar staff that she belived it wa-s the man from that night, she was asked again later & said she was 85-90% certain. The landlord asked them to leave he ended up having a long argument, where he said somethings that a landlord should never say to a customer & he also told the man that even if CCtv confirmed it wasn't him he would not apologise. I believe the customer has then complained to the licensing body and they need to be seen to take some action as they have only just been granted a later licence & do not want to jeopardise that.
AS she is under 18 she can request a parent/carer to be present however I am not sure this would be the best thing to do.
She can also ask for Union or a colleague.
The landlords were both involeved in the argument with the man & have made statements the disciplinary letter is signed by one of the Landlords but has been emailed to her by the manager who calls her Bud & signs off the email with cheers & nickname.
The evidence has not been provided to my daughter. the manager sent a text message to my daughter advising of the other girls disciplinary - this is the only GDPR breach & its by them.
I think that answers all the questions - I am going to be gone for a bit as I need to cook tea for us.

Honestly what she did does not sound like gross misconduct. She didn’t say she was 100 percent sure. Look up what gross misconduct is and ask them how it meets the definition. You should go and a colleague.

.

Right so your daughter didn't say she was entirely sure, and the landlord engaged in a long and unprofessional argument.

It's great the pub management stood up for her, but they may need to work on their customer refusal tactics

@UggyPow

I am in shock - DD works for a small local business worked there for 14 months, bosses love her lots of promotions, training & development - keep talking about long term career to her & training options. Out of the blue an email received inviting her to a disciplinary for gross negligence, in regards to care of the customers, it refers to policy & procedures which she has never seen & doesn't tell her what it is about, no investigation, nothing. I have looked at ACAS & it clearly says to talk to employee first but does allow for going straight to disciplinary but says they must provide suffucient notice less than 48 hours given (Acas states 5 working days). But it doesn't tell her anything about the situation or circumstances concerned. ACAs clearly says as part of any investigation evidence must be gathered from all sides - this definitely hasn't happened as she has no idea what it's even about. It also says the letter should clearly state what it regards to so the person can prepare. Oh and email is signed cheers managers nickname She gets her GCSE results on Thursday & is already incredibly stressed out with the Chaos of that. Not sure what to do, worried if go in all guns blazing could wreck daughter's job which she loves but how they they call a disciplinary without telling the person what it is about!!!!!

Are you sure the investigation is about her? Could it be fact finding for some else? I know someone that was in similar situation and it wasn't to do with her. It was someone else and she was asked to go S part of an investigation.

"I heard him saying to the others at the table that it was ridiculous for a barmaid to object to being touched & it was part of the job!!!!"

There really are no words.

That is so utterly disgusting.

"I heard him saying to the others at the table that it was ridiculous for a barmaid to object to being touched & it was part of the job!!!!"

Just to confirm, this was the customer saying this right and not the landlord or manager? I read it like that, but when I re-read I wasn't so sure.

Ans she wouldn't be invited to a disciplinary meeting if it was about someone else. That's not how it works.

Your her mum. She's 16 step in and say you will take it to an employment tribunal. 16 is too young to manage that sort of crap.

A few things.

1. This isn’t gross misconduct. At worst mistaken identity.
2. The landlord is allowed to refuse to serve anyone he wants for whatever reason he wants, he doesn’t have to give a reason. No licensing body should query that.
3. She needs to be given any evidence they have (written statements, cctv evidence etc) in advance.

Do not let her go alone. If you don’t feel you can go then have another reasonable, authorative, calm and strong willed adult go with her.

She needs to reply in writing before she goes asking for confirmation of what it is regarding and what evidence they have so she can prepare. They haven’t directly told her and she shouldn’t have to rely on someone else’s word. She should make them aware that she will be recording the entire meeting on her phone (e.g. use the voice memos app on an iPhone - I did this once before with my ex husband). They don’t have the right or a good reason to refuse the taping.

If they know she is taking this seriously they will probably back down pretty quickly given how unprofessional it all sounds. I agree they’re trying to make her and the other girl scapegoats for the manager being so rude to the customer. It’s easier for them to bully a 16 year old girl into incorrectly admitting she’s in the wrong than it is to stand up to an aggressive adult man.

It doesn’t matter if she misidentified the customer. The manager was right to ask him to leave (bar staff can reserve the right to refuse custom for any reason) but should have been more professional. They need to take that up with him.

The manager’s 16 year old colleague was feeling concerned that the customer may be someone who had sexually harassed her previously. End of discussion. Are they suggesting she should have to risk the customer sexually harass her again? You can bet your ass they won’t want to admit to that on tape.

If she was mine I'd be getting a solicitor to deal with this - to write all the letters and ask all the questions on your behalf prior to this meeting.

[quote DogInATent]Go with her.

She's 16, they can't restrict who accompanies her to a colleague or trade union rep unless they want to look like monsters. But you'd have to be impartial during the meeting and let her speak for herself.

Ring the ACAS helpline, www.acas.org.uk/contact[/quote]
They do not have to accept anyone outside the company if they don't want to. Your DD can put in a request for you to accompany her but they aren't doing anything wrong if they refuse.

I had a similar incident (not serial assault though!) although was just 18 at the time, the youngest employee in a hotel. I was on night shift, first week of opening, taking reservations calls. My manager was sitting with me, sharing the headset as I was still training. A call came in from front desk saying a guest had been 'walked from another hotel (basically when another hotel is full they walk the guest to yours and pay the bill) to ours. I then made th reservation in our system - with my Manager talking me through each step - and we put the guest up in a suite and lo and behold the next morning he left without settling the bill. When we contacted the other hotel, turns put it was a scam and they hadn't walked him. So, the Receptionist took the details of the walkover and put him through to me, my Manager talked me through making the reservation and who got the blame?? Me. They actually tried to pin it on me, called me into a Disciplinary and tried to deduct the nights stay (in a suite!) From my wages!!! The Receptionish and my Manager were invited into my Disciplinary as witnesses, Ffs! Both older and experienced hoteliers. Didn't even get a slap on the wrist. Well, I took advice from a union rep (although not in the union) and my dad before going in and I refused to play their game! I cited my case, union advice and said they legally could not dock my wages for something my Manager had sanctioned. They were not happy but didn't have a leg to stand on legally (or morally!). Worst they could do was 'put a letter in my file' which I accepted but again pointed out that legally that letter could only be on my file for 6 months. 6 months to the day I called HR....

So, prepare your daughter, call ACAS/ union and get advice and most important, tell your daughter to not accept ANYTHING in that meeting. She can make notes and come away without commenting or admitting anything.

sorry, really long . Don't like young hard working people getting walked all over at work!

This is a meeting only to clarify info.

Chilver makes a good point. Don’t agree to anything in the meeting and don’t respond to any questions she is uncomfortable answering. She can come away and take a day to think it all over before agreeing to anything. It’s not something a 16 year old should have to go through but it will teach her to stand up for herself in the workplace.

A few things.

Firstly, most HR advice you see on MN is absolute horseshit, so take it with a huge pinch of salt. Do not believe anything posted on here (including my post, of course ), without double-checking it.

Secondly, the first thing to decide is what your DD's preferred outcome is. Does she really want to stay with this company now? If not, don't bother fighting for that, but focus on avoiding a dismissal. You want her to reach a mutually agreed termination of contract, with a pre-agreed positive reference and perhaps even a small settlement payment. I know it's hard, but try to help her to stand back from the feelings of injustice and focus on achieving the best outcome for her.

Thirdly, be aware of the difference between best practice and legal requirements, because you need to leverage the two differently. Companies are not required to follow the ACAS code of practice so a failure to do so is not, of itself, a matter for a tribunal. If a tribunal does take place and the code has not been followed, the tribunal can increase an award to an employee. If your DD"s employer is a big brewery, though, that will be chicken feed to them and they won't care. Better leverage for you is more the hassle and potential bad publicity that an ET case involving a minor being groped would cause them.

My first reaction here is that they could be trying to get rid of staff to reduce overheads re Covid. Is she a hairdresser? Could it be Health and Safety/Covid related? I find it hard to believe that a 16 year old could commit gross negligence in the workplace as surely they should have been properly managed and managers should assume some responsibility/blame.

Suspect they are going through the motions here op and she will be fine.

Sorry, just read your updates and have seen that it's in a pub. They are definitely trying to throw her under the bus here!! Absolutely terrible.

Thank you everyone - I need to talk to people fast tomorrow.
It is not a brewery but a small local independant, there are only 8 staff including the 2 landlords. We live around the corner & have to pass this bar multiple times a day - it is the only way to get out of our road.
I am not sure what she wants, she feels very betrayed - not relevant to what is happening but her dad is deceased & this couple have previously said they feel she is a surrogate daughter, the said landlord that he feels/wants to be a father figure to her as her father passed away when she was 13 - I kind of feel sick at what they have subsequently done & how they have destroyed her trust.
Feel sick & feel crap as a parent that she is dealing with this - I''m all she got though so I'll pick myself up again in the morning & work out what to do

Such a lot of conclusions jumped to here. If you don't know exactly what she is accused of how are you so sure they are in the wrong? If it's a small Independent company they probably don't have a lot of experience with disciplinaries and so have made some errors with the paperwork. Not right but maybe understandable. Tell her to go back to them and find out exactly what the alleged misconduct is. If there is an allegation of gross misconduct they are required to investigate. That does not mean they are accusing her of anything or decided she is in the wrong. It will be investigated and an outcome reached after investigation. Usually the first meeting will be to dicuss with her and get further information. She would then be invited back and a decision given. Don't go in all guns blazing acusing them of all sorts of made up shit from this thread.