parental leave, flexible working

[talky]

Feeling desperate and need support. Am due back from mat leave next month.I have made a formal request for flexible working and unpaid parental leave.My boss was unresonable with me whilst I was pregnant and I'm afraid that i'm being treted unfairly again.
I thought your employer could not refuse 4 weeks per child unpaid prental leave, if takken after mat leave and before the child's 5th bday. she has asked me to come in for a meeting with her manager and HR because she has concerbs about my request for the leave and flexible working.
I work for the NHS and wish to drop 3 hours a week and doubt that there can be a truely valid reson to refuse my request but my boss seems ignorant of the law. worryingly' HR also don't seem to be aware of the legal timescales and procedures.
I'm really worried about this and need any words of wisdom.

flowery? Felt great. called HR, asked for parental leave and flexible working request to be handled seperately. He said no. I tried to say what you suggested. No way he was goig to budge. I asked atleast could deal with the flex request first. in the end he said i could steer the meeting (!) i think this was meant slightly condescendingly as obviously they are the ones in the driving seat.
Am now very worried about how this going. THey have an agenda for linking the 2 issues together and i deduce that it is that my mat leave plus 7 weeks parental leave have created such problems that it is not possible for me to drop 3 hours a week.
please give some hope, tips.. Am starting to wish i wasn't going back,altho do enjoy my job.

hi talky

I would get very firm. Your parental leave request is already granted, you are happy to discuss any issues there may be around covering your work or whatever, however taking a short period of parental leave has no bearing on a flexible working request which is a permanent change to your contract.
I would put that in writing to HR and your boss, so they can't fob you off on the phone or whatever.
Then when you have the meeting about your flexible working, take notes (is someone coming with you?), and if anyone raises your parental leave as an issue, just keep saying 'this meeting is to discuss my flexible working request, not my parental leave request which has already been agreed, could we leave that until another time please?' Just keep resolute, calm but firm and refuse to discuss it. You are right they are trying to mix the two up but as I say, parental leave is a very short time in the scheme of things, and should have no bearing whatsoever on a permanent reduction in your hours.

Wish I had your brain. I'm so easily outwitted and I'm starting to feel intimadated. Be firm...be firm.. business case...business case..
thanks million.

You'll be fine. As I say, put it in an email prior to the meeting so that everyone is clear before you start. I checked below and you are taking your union rep aren't you? Make sure he or she is very clear on what's happening and ask him/her to intervene should the meeting start veering towards a discussion about your parental leave.
Do you have a date for the meeting?

yep. soon. prefer not to give date.You have been a life saver.

Jusy wondering.Do I have to agree to a trial period, or does there need to be a valid reason for them to enforce this? If a trial period is agreed how do you decide who has the final say and what happens if we disagree? By the way, I do feel guilty for taking up Flowery's time. Just hope this might be helping others too.

I mean trial of a new working pattern

Hi talky
You don't have to agree to a trial period, but I would if I were you, if the request is agreed on that basis. That way you have a chance to prove how well it would work....

As you know, they can refuse on various grounds related to business need. If they suggest a trial period that might mean they are not convinced it will work but either they don't think they have enough grounds to refuse it or they are genuinely not sure and don't want to commit themselves. Any request of this kind that is agreed is a permanent change to your contract so it's fair enough for them to request a trial period if they are not sure how well it would work.

If they suggest it, go for it, and use the opportunity to prove how amazingly well it would work, how it wouldn't affect the quality of your work, etc etc. It's essentially your chance to make your point.

The grounds on which they can refuse your request remain the same after a trial period, so whether you agree about how well it's worked is kind of irrelevant, if it hasn't worked on any of the business grounds they are allowed to use to refuse it in the first place, then they can refuse it then.

Perfect sense. Thanks.

Flowery? Recently had the meeting. I had put together my proposal baased purely on business points. I know i did a good case and that what i am asking for is not ubfeasible. They had made up their mind before the i put forward my case and were not prepared to budge on a single thing, even tho i offered compromise on 3 points. In the end we are talking bout a very small reduction in hours. I'm pretty sure they don't want me back. I know my boss is considered widely within the organisation and further afeild.Getting my head together. It does mean I will probabaly not be able to work.

sorry meant to say that she is widely considered to be considered to be less than reasonable and the service has a high staff turnover.

I have another suggestion that has occured to me for a compromise. How do i best get this heard fairly? Wait for the appeal? try a less formal route?

I care about my job, despite the line management and would obviously prefer to return as planned.

Hi talky. Sorry meeting didn't go well.
Obviously difficult to say without knowing more, but a straight refusal without even considering some compromises is a bit rubbish.
Did you propose a trial period?
Your option now is to appeal it.
They have to give you written notification of the refusal, giving you the business grounds for the refusal, and explaining why the business grounds they have used are relevant. Have they done this? The following are the business grounds they can use:

Burden of additional costs.
Detrimental effect on ability to meet customer demand.
Inability to reorganise work among existing staff.
Inability to recruit additional staff.
Detrimental impact on quality.
Detrimental impact on performance.
Insufficiency of work during the periods the employee proposes to work.
Planned structural changes

They must also notify you of your right to appeal the decision. If you appeal it and still get nowhere you can try the grievance procedure. You can eventually take it to an employment tribunal, but only on the basis that they either didn't follow the correct procedure or that the facts they used about the business grounds are incorrect. A tribunal has no say over whether business grounds are reasonable or not, so if it's just that you feel the business grounds are not justified, it would have to be a sex discrimination case.

All sounds very heavy doesn't it? I would be inclined to appeal it if I were you - I imagine there is a procedure in place for this in the NHS, and I expect it says an appeal would be heard by someone more senior. If you put together a well-contructed appeal, explain that you offered compromises and request a trial period they really ought to at least agree to that I would have thought.

Get your head together as you say. It does sound like they aren't that desperate to have you back tbh, so you need to weigh that up (ie even if you successfully appealed it, how good would your working life be) against the fact that it was a reasonable request and it might mean you couldn't work.
At the very least, if you do successfully appeal it, or get a trial period agreed, it would give you a bit of breathing space to look for something else, or think about what you can do.

Have a think anyway.

x-posts, was typing huge post! Hopefully it answers your questions anyway. You could propose your alternative compromise more informally, you wouldn't lose anything, then if it's also refused, you have the appeal.

Anyone else out there?
The thing that is tricky is that the business reasons are pretty broad that they can refuse youon. So even if are putting a good business case together, if they don't want you back for any reason (costs or anything) they can probably get away with refusing your request.
The appeal is also an internal process, acts like a greviance i beleive. I don't hold out much hope of success there, as they'd have to admit fault.
Yuk.

God thanks. The sane person.

I did suggest a trial. was turned down, altho they said i should try coming back on full hours and then perhaps a trail could come later on. i tried to ask why this would be a better why to trial it, no straight answer. union rep thinks they are trying to save money (can't go into details here).
Any tips on forwarding another compromise? Letter? In person? I think usually best to have things in writing, but then more formal. How do i not sound as tho i don't have a clue bout the process?

Would it sound narky to submit the earlier compromises again as I didin't feel they were properly considered? Not saying that ofcourse.

Am slightly more hopeful after you said that senior management present next stage. Just for HR? OR my service manager too? cAn it just be the same people again?

It doesn't legally have to be more senior person, I am speculating about the process in the NHS - it will say in the flexible working procedure, but I would be surpised if that wasn't the case. It only normally wouldn't be in a v small organisation where there isn't really an option for that.

I would submit something in writing, email for speed, just stating that you did suggest x, y and z compromises, which were declined, however you would also like to now suggest another compromise, and give details.

Do appeal it as well though, don't wait for an answer, make sure you get your appeal in within your time limit. If they agree to your other compromise you can withdraw the appeal, but they may get stroppy about you trying to appeal it after your deadline if you wait for an answer about an informal suggestion.

Once you've had formal written notification, you have 14 days to get your appeal in, they must then arrange a meeting to discuss it which must take place within another 14 days after receiving your appeal.

God thank you for all of that. It sounds like such a simple process, but it doesn't work out like that.

Would love advice from either an HR or mum point of view. Every day since the meeting I realise that my situation is worse than i'd thought.
Altho my proposal may sound re;atively small request (which i thought would make it more successful) it does mean that i make money on the days i work as paying for 2 days child care that i'm fully using and not 3 that an only using part of (6 hours spanning both patrs of the day)plus additional costs of before school care on those days for my older child. I would be making almost no money,whilst leaving both children more than i would choose.
Ofcourse i didn't bring this to the neeting, but i know they think i can afford not to work(can't) and that i'm just demanding my rights for some trivial convenience.
I was pregnant when i joined and i'm sure that they felt duped in some way.
They want me out, there were some pointed comments and subtle eye rolling in the meeting.
I await the written responce. If they stick to their central arguement- i know it to be factualy incorrect.
Fantastic, i thought at first.Now realise they will make my life very hard.
I'm starting to feel this is becoming a blemmish on my work record. How can i stop things getting worse?
Am looking elsewhere ofcourse. little in my line within discent travel.
Feels like a bad dream.

talky it is difficult. It won't be a blemish on your work record, and whatever way this gets resolved how it happened will soon be forgotten. Within a very short time it will be all about how you are working, results, effectiveness etc that is important, and a disagreement about your hours will soon become irrelevant.

However there is the possibility that there is more to it as you say, they may indeed be unhappy with your work for whatever reason, and if your request is such a minor one and they are reluctant to agree it, it does indicate there might be other issues here - if they were desperate to keep you I can't see that they would let this stand in the way tbh.

You can pursue this, and I think you might have a realistic chance of getting it agreed if you appeal it and someone else looks at it. You will then need to work hard and prove yourself. No reason you can't do that. It does mean going through the stress for a bit though, and as I say, you may have more issues to overcome than just a small dispute about hours.

Or you can call it a day. Your request does sound perfectly reasonable, but if there is more of a problem here, ultimately even if you force your flexible working request through, you may still not be in a good working environment. I will stress that I don't believe an unpleasant working environment would result only from a disagreement about hours though.

Hopefully some people who have been through it from the same point of view as you will have some opinions for you.

Hi talky. Just read all story & feel for you. Am in similar position in NHS, had 1 yr mat leave followed by 1 yr 'career break' (ends March 08). Just in middle of negotiating returning to work via flex working policy & only yesterday they rejected my application. Want to reduce hrs from FT to 2 & half days but during my time away, Trust has seen huge structural & orgamisational changes & service no longer requires me basically (am 1 of 4 in team). They can offer me 10 hrs only but have clearly stipulated that it may not be within my previous role or within my previous team (so may have to move Trusts) This is quite daunting but I knew this may happen in my absence.
Your employers have to offer you a similarly paid post within the organisation even if its not your old job. Would that suit you?

thanks so much.
Flowery, you always seem to kinow everything.Helped alot. I am good at my job. There are issues i think too. Boss has something of a reputation. Do think they feel duped cos was pregnant.
They don't have to provide my flex request if they give business reasons. But thanks for thoughts. Good luck to you too, emf.

just rushed back from school run. I meant they don't have to offer anything else within NHS, they can just refuse flex request. As my job still exists.Would take a diff post tho. Are you surprised sometimes that NHS not as family freindly as would think. I mean I know it still has to be cost effective etc Are you glad you took the leave?

Had year mat leave & further yr as 'career break' (so will be 2 yrs in total) & yes definately right decision as have spent precious time with ds that you can't ever get back. This is mainly cos no family locally to look after ds & not wanting him to go to nursery til 2 yrs so all worked out from that point of view.
Will be intersting to hear what my manager says in this meeting later this week re what exactly she has in mind with regards to what I will be doing & which Trust I will be doing it in. Not bothered really; dh & I have discussed it & the 10hrs they've offered me will be enough to not have to pay mat leave pay back & pay for nursery fees. Crazy crazy world!
Have you decided anything more?

Hi mum. Nice to someone else going thru similiar. Glad it's been the right choice for you to have leave, worth the prolems now. NO doubt in the longterm, you'll be in the post you want.

I think flowery is right about me.There seem to be personal issues here. That is so not me, I'm ususally pretty well respected at work. I am sure now it is cos i was preg when appointed. Altho only just and wasn't aware. They 've treated other mat leavers badly too, byt cos i'm making a request for parental leave and flex working too; they seem to have decided to make my life hard on the flex request as they have most power on this one.

I'm so unhappy about this.love my job and am dedicated. i know i do good work but am afraid that they will try to make me come a cropper when i gat back.

Scary.