Civil Service

[Asimovsfutureishere2020]

Hi,

I wonder if I could get some advice from people as I would like opinions on CS careers and have seen really valuable advice to other posters on here in the past.

I have been accepted to the CS as Customer Service Consultant with HMRC. Entry level pay as an apprentice. I am a mature woman (late 40s) previously a teacher, then did a masters in STEM. I can use python/quant methods of analysis but not much real experience just thesis based. I have some experience working with Git/web sites/HTML, etc.

So, my tech experience is junior but there is some higher level stuff which I have the aptitude for and understand. I have accepted the CS role at apprenticeship level as I really like going in at the ground level and understanding how things function on frontline/operational level but I am ambitious and want to progress fairly quickly.

In the past, I have tried this strategy (not with CS) and I have become stuck at Ops level as that it were I was identifiable.

I would really appreciate feedback from others on my plans and whether you think they are realistic/achievable/practical. I have also got some personal/family things going on at the moment so it suits me to spend a year/18 months at a level wher I will feel confident and secure in a structured environment (particularly due to current changes in CS).

My reasons for CS are, in short the structured training, environment, career options and pension.

My options for tech: can only do python, not very confident, wages would progress after experience but so could CS.

Any views?

Thanks,

Apologies, that sounds really confusing.

In summary - I have some tech experience but have been offered a customer service apprenticeship with CS which I have accepted.

My thinking is that the CS is a better option long term and that entering at apprenticeship level is good. I think there will be room to move depts/level later on and that there is good career progression in CS.

I've been a civil servant for many years now. I think it's a great place to have a varied career. I have worked in four different govt departments, four grades and in both operational and policy departments.

Operational departments are very differently from policy - people in ops have more responsibility per grade for instance. Generally the A/E/H/SEO grades are the "doing" grades so there are a lot more in ops, while G7 and up are the "thinking grades" so many more in policy.

Whether you can progress quickly will depend on the opportunities in your location. If you're in London and willing to change departments you will have more opportunities than if you are limited to working outside London in an operational hub (HMRC operates largely from big ops hubs these days). Management spans are much wider in ops - for instance a G7 in ops might be running a whole division but a G7 in policy might only have one direct report, which means fewer opportunities in ops to move upwards.

@Isleepinahedgefund

That is what I thought - I am a masters grad and my skillset I would say is suited to 'thinking' it is definitely where I am comfortable but I also thought it would be handy to have knowledge from the ground up, particularly now the apprenticeship programme has been rolled out.

I am glad you said you moved depts and levels - this was my worry part now its an apprentciecship - I wondered whether that would silo you into one dept and you would be expected to progress only within there.

Thank you for replying

am London based

The HMRC is experiencing a lot of upheaval at the moment (especially if you are in London). It’s supposed to be temporary so don’t let it put you off but just a heads up really.

@Reginabambina - I figured that, so going in at ops level should be straightforward, no? It's entry level, apprenticeship so you will have training.

Seemed preferable to going in during a turbulent time at fast track/policy level?

It will probably seem quite chaotic as there’s been a lot of moving around for some people over the past few years. I know that some people working there were feeling really fed up but I’d imagine it will all settle down. Just don’t be too shocked if everything isn’t in order yet.

Thanks, Regina,

I don't actually know when it is due to start - could be months away yet.

What do you think about my plan? As I say I have tech qualifications but at the moment am more confident doing customer service based work.

OP I will PM you.

@Wolfff

Ok, cheers

So I think there are opportunities for promotion. We take people from HMRC who want to progress, as it is quite an operational Dept, whereas if you want to do policy it's probably easier to move to another Department.

So yes I think do the apprenticeship and then look to move on.

@AnneElliott Thank you, Anne.

I was worried they might frown on that and the expectation is that you had to stay within your dept.

I may be happy staying there - I haven't ruled that out but I am just trying to imagine all possibilities.

I have shifted and interviewed people for jobs and applications from other depts are treated seriously. We recruited quite a few on my old team.

If you're London based there's lots of opportunities. If you want to be in policy I think having worked in ops gives you a perspective most people in policy don't have - how things are going to work in practice!

From what you describe of yourself I think you will find an apprenticeship frustrating if it is one of the bottom of the pile ones. What grade is it?

No one bats an eyelid at people moving departments, especially around Whitehall.

Be wary of doing anything 'technical' these skills can be bought off the shelf. OH was IT and saw much of the services being outsourced. Shan't say anything about his opinion of the standard of services brought in as it may sound sour grapes other than they tended to buy based on cost rather than quality.

@Isleepinahedgefund

I thought it would be beneficial to go in at ground level to see how things work and that the experience would stand me in good ground at a later stage.

It is entry level - AO and I think that normally I would feel frustrated at that level if I thought it was permanent but I also have had quite a lot of change, disruption over the last few years and the challenge of strting something very demanding is not something I can see myself coping with now - I think something less challenging, more routine and structured will be beneficial to me in the short term.

Perhaps I am looking at this in the wrong way. I have had some health issues, my mum is ill, I feel there have been a lot of demands on me and am not up to a top game atm.

@BigfatLiar that is very commonly heard of it the Tech world - they say that the public sector is notorious for it.

I am not so confident going in at tech level as although I have some skills there are guys with serious tech mindsets out there who live and breathe this stuff and I don't.

It is easily replaceable as you say and I think my strengths are in communication and in general, most of the tech work I imagine is using applications not building new, creative stuff unless you are at a specialist level and then it is probably bought in from outside.

I have enough to talk confidently about it and understand the limitations (which is valuable in itself) but not sure I could compete with a CS grad. masters is in Information Science with machine learning

Hi there I also have a STEM Degree (Mathematics) and entered the Civil Service as a Customer Service Consultant. You won’t be eligible for their ‘apprenticeship’ as you already have a degree so while your fellow employees have time off (still at their desks but working on their apprenticeship work instead of on the phones) you will still be taking calls and working as normal. Happy to answer any further questions.

Although the user experience stuff is interesting as there is research involved

For HMRC.

Another thing - is your contract a 1 yr one? There's no guarantee of a job at the end of an apprenticeship. In my last dept some we kept some we didn't - mostly the job just wasn't there after the 1 yr and/or their contract didn't allow us to convert it to permanent.

Will depend on the contract but usually it's 6 months on probation and then you can apply for other jobs around CS. The majority of vacancies are advertised "across government" so you can't even view them until you're on the inside.

Remember that the experience from the rest of your life will be just as valuable as the experience you get in the civil service when it comes to applying for other jobs.

Do you specifically want to do IT type stuff? If you're not too bothered you could look at fast stream or the TSP course. I did the predecessor course (TPDP) and enjoy my job - honestly I dont think it's that easy to get promoted in the civil service but my experience is limited in that I did a programme that led to a specific promotion.

@Whatnext2020

hello! I think that rule changed in the last few years? Now, grads can do apprenticeships.

How did you find Customer service after doing a maths degree? Are you still there?

It is a permanent post.

I am really interested in seeing what it is like once I am in and will take it from there. My background is in teaching with some admin and tech based work.

I have a lot of experience from other fields so yes, I hope that counts.

I'd be wary of getting pigeon-holed in the Ops role. I'd have your next steps and timeframe mapped out and already be starting to look at more suitable tech roles to fit your quals and experience. Don't let the grass grow in other words, as you'll want to stay nimble and increase your exposure to different, increasingly challenging roles, to avoid stagnating.

I'd see your Python experience being best applied in the domains of Artificial Intelligence, data analytics (sophisticated dashboards and management information) and automation. Those skills are very sought after across Govt Departments, not just HMRC