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grievance evidence help

54 replies

fcek · 11/05/2019 18:21

For a formal grievance at work:

Do you need to provide evidence with the grievance letter or does that come later?

What evidence and how should it be structured?

how do you avoid rambling?

Do you tell them everything or just some key, make them think "oh fuck" things?

Is it them who needs to evidence they haven't discriminated, or me who has to evidence that they have - DH and I disagree, he's a private sector manager, I'm in the public sector

Do I need to source witnesses? Are witnesses needed at all? Do they get witnesses? Is there a need for witnesses to be believed?

Do they need to see my evidence or can I just say what evidence I have? Do they need copies of emails?

What if witnesses refuse to participate?

How should I lay out my evidence? It is currently pages long!

What if its not upheld Sad. I want to stay in my job but if it's not upheld and then the appeal is not upheld, I don't know what I'd do.

Can an employment tribunal claim be dated from the grievance decision date as I read online that you should go through the grievance process first which is 4 blooming stages and will take ages.

My union rep is useless so doesn't have all the answers and I don't have legal cover on my house insurance.

I'm trying to rely on internet sites for guidance and MN too

My grievance is disability discrimination.

Shitting myself and really want to win as I honestly cannot continue working under these situations but I love my job. I just don't like my manager. A move to another department is not an option as my qualification / experience is very specific and I definitely would not want to waste that qualification.

OP posts:
flowery · 11/05/2019 20:21

Do you need to provide evidence with the grievance letter or does that come later?

The earlier you provide it the sooner they will be able to consider it, so I’d provide it all upfront to avoid any delay.

What evidence and how should it be structured?

Depends entirely what evidence there is, and what allegation you are making. Could be emails or other documents.

how do you avoid rambling?

Edit edit edit. Make sure you’re not repeating yourself and that there is a clear structure to your grievance, ideally with headings and points underneath in support.

Do you tell them everything or just some key, make them think "oh fuck" things?

Include relevant things. Don’t do the classic thing of throwing in everything you’ve ever been slightly peeved about just to make your grievance ‘bigger’, because then it detracts from the actual meaty stuff and gives the impression of whiny mud-slinging.

Is it them who needs to evidence they haven't discriminated, or me who has to evidence that they have - DH and I disagree, he's a private sector manager, I'm in the public sector

You need to evidence that they might have discriminated, then they need to provide evidence that the situation you describe was not discrimination. So for example if you’d been treated less favourably because of pregnancy, you’d need to provide facts evidencing the alleged less-favourable treatment, from which a tribunal could consider it to have been discrimination, and then your employer would need to prove why the facts you describe were not discrimination and provide sufficient explanation,

Do I need to source witnesses? Are witnesses needed at all? Do they get witnesses? Is there a need for witnesses to be believed?

Depends whether there were incidents which were witnessed. You could either ask witnesses yourself or could just point out that so-and-so was present at the time, and ask your employer to seek evidence from them. Not sure what you mean by is there a need for witnesses to be believed? Obviously if they are not believed your grievance is less likely to be upheld, but unless there is reason to believe they are lying your employer should generally believe witnesses.

Do they need to see my evidence or can I just say what evidence I have? Do they need copies of emails?

They will need to see it. You could direct them to where it is but I suggest you provide it.

What if witnesses refuse to participate?

Not an awful lot you can do about that really.

How should I lay out my evidence? It is currently pages long!

Be concise, structure it well and logically, use headings, usually various allegations with supporting evidence outlined underneath. Make it as easy as possible for someone with no prior knowledge of the circumstances to comprehend. Remember it is being read internally first but might be read wider later on, if you take it further.

What if its not upheld sad. I want to stay in my job but if it's not upheld and then the appeal is not upheld, I don't know what I'd do.

You can either stay as you are, leave your job and/or bring a tribunal claim. Or a settlement might be negotiated.

Can an employment tribunal claim be dated from the grievance decision date as I read online that you should go through the grievance process first which is 4 blooming stages and will take ages.

Not sure what you mean? A tribunal claim is dated from the date you put it in? You would normally be expected to make all reasonable attempts to resolve it internally first, which usually means following the grievance process. Otherwise your employer could claim your legal action was premature and they weren’t given reasonable opportunity to put things right.

fcek · 11/05/2019 21:40

@flowery you are amazing, thank you

I meant the 3 months minus 1 day timeline for discrimination claims. I've been on sick leave for 8 weeks now, does that mean I only have 1 month left or could I date it from the end of the grievance procedures (assuming I resign)?

Where can I find a grievance template? A good one? All the ones I look at say "enter your text here" and that's where I end up writing pages Sad

Not sure whether or not to mention I was a witness to a racist comment my manager made as it was pretty serious but might come across as throwing everything at them sort of thing?

OP posts:
flowery · 11/05/2019 22:08

The grievance procedure can be considered part of ongoing acts of discrimination so you are fine to exhaust the grievance procedure and then bring a tribunal claim. You don’t need to resign to bring a claim necessarily.

Don’t know about a template, you probably won’t find one because each grievance is very different so the structure/headings would be individual.

Is the racist comment relevant?

daisychain01 · 11/05/2019 22:18

Do you need to provide evidence with the grievance letter or does that come later?

Your grievance needs to be factual, succinct and clear as to the nature of your concern. 1-2 relevant emails that back up your point has more impact than throwing reams at them that become difficult to sift the wood from the trees.

What evidence and how should it be structured?

Chronological. Statements starting with date eg

15 Jan 2018: Manager did xyz in a team meeting.
23 Jan 2018: Colleague A and Colleague B were talking with Manager about xyz

how do you avoid rambling?

Jot down your ideas in rough form first then decide which parts aren't relevant.

Do you tell them everything or just some key, make them think "oh fuck" things?

Don't aim to cause any extreme impact, it will come across as sensationalist. Stick 100% to facts, using simple short sentences as per above

Is it them who needs to evidence they haven't discriminated, or me who has to evidence that they have - DH and I disagree, he's a private sector manager, I'm in the public sector

You're taking out the grievance so give them the relevant facts. They should respond stating their perspective as to whether they agree with you.

Do I need to source witnesses? Are witnesses needed at all? Do they get witnesses? Is there a need for witnesses to be believed?

Don't be surprised if people don't want to get involved. It's worth asking if it firms up your statement but don't count on them.

Do they need to see my evidence or can I just say what evidence I have? Do they need copies of emails?

What if witnesses refuse to participate?.
You can't force them I'm afraid, but try to appeal their sense of fair play and that you appreciate their support

How should I lay out my evidence? It is currently pages long!
Try the format I mention above of date plus event and state briefly what the negative impact was to you.

Misnomer · 11/05/2019 22:30

You have three months from the last discriminatory act to put in a notification with ACAS. You do not have to wait for the internal grievance procedure to have run its course if it means that in doing so you would miss this deadline. I've just done this myself and on the same grounds. The advisor from ACAS said that my employer may well want to complete the formal grievance before entering into conciliatory talks but I'm now covered if I do need to go to tribunal.

My written grievance was fairly straight forward as I had all corerspondence in writing so I just wrote what happened on what date and then numbered each piece of evidence, inserted the reference number in the text and then all evidence at the back in numerical order.

If you're not happy with your rep you can request another. Speak to who ever is in charge of the branch. I also did this. My original rep was very nice but would take weeks between replying to every single message and time was not in my side.

daisychain01 · 11/05/2019 22:33

In general terms discrimination is about you being put at a disadvantage compared with colleagues.

At the heart of any discrimination claim is clarity on exactly what you believe they have done or failed to do that put you at a disadvantage due to a protected characteristic such as you being a woman, being pg, being disabled etc. It should be very clear wheat the wrongdoing is on their part, in your view.

There is nothing wrong in brief highlighting how their actions made you feel, eg I felt humiliated/marginalised/isolated/belittled/offended etc. It demonstrates the consequences of their actions, which in law are valid measures of impact in a discrimination case.

Sorry about my earlier xpost. I started drafting it earlier, then went off to have dinner and carried on later Smile

daisychain01 · 11/05/2019 22:43

Not sure whether or not to mention I was a witness to a racist comment my manager made as it was pretty serious

If you have been subjected to racism by your manager, and it's central to your claim,and your colleagues have witnessed the manager's racist views (and are prepared to state it as witnesses to align to what you have been subjected to) it could be worth including. It risks your colleagues deciding they don't want to be involved and change their mind about being witnesses which weakens that bit of "evidence ". Your decision as to how far you take it.

MrsPinkCock · 11/05/2019 23:02

Just to add to the good advice you’ve had so far - regarding time limits - a grievance procedure will not automatically extend time limits if you wait until the decision date. It can be very dangerous to rely on this as there would have to be a further act of discrimination occurring during the grievance process to extend the time limit. Not something you could argue could be discriminatory, but something a judge finds in fact to amount to actual, legal discrimination.

You really need legal advice to determine time limits and ensure the claim is brought in time. You can always argue that it is just and equitable to extend the time limit but it’s far more straightforward to bring a claim within 3 months of the initial act(s).

daisychain01 · 12/05/2019 07:12

Have you already raised your concerns informally? Have you tried to highlight the behaviours directly with the person, ie your manager?

It shows good practice if you mention how you've followed the due process.

You can state in your document (for example: >>) "on 25 Feb 2018, I asked to discuss the negative behaviour targeted at me, in an informal meeting with my manager. I am raising this formal grievance because none of my concerns were taken seriously and I was told it was only a joke and I should get on with my job, which made me feel isolated and belittled"

fcek · 12/05/2019 07:47

Thank you @daisychain01

You have helped a lot too.

I am trying to do a table this weekend, but I'm not sure if it is a good idea. My layout is as follows:

1 date incident law/policy broken
2 date incident law / policy broken

Does that look okay? I'm currently on page 8 now (was on page 31 when I typed it all up like an essay). Really struggling to cut things down and avoid rambling!

I have made several emailed informal complaints yes which have been either ignored or denied.

I have written a 2 page grievance letter with the following structure:

my disabilities
my complaints (bullet points eg failure to make adjustments, discrimination arising from disability)
laws / company policies i believe were broken
The impact on me (panic attacks, signed off with stress)
I have tried to deal with it informally, not happy with response etc
preferred resolution
want union rep / colleague present in any hearing

Does this sound okay?

Do I submit that 2 page letter on its own or do I need to include my table of evidence (dates etc) with it? Do I need to submit the letter, the table and the supporting emails or can the letter be enough for now?

Thanks so much everyone, I really want to get this right. This has been going on for a long time and informal approach always gets promises which end up being broken.

Re: the racist comment, this plus a complaint I made 3 years ago about her bullying of someone else, can provide evidence that it's not just me? DH does not think I should include it as it gets into murky territory....

OP posts:
daisychain01 · 12/05/2019 10:34

When it comes to giving you specific advice about the exact content to include, I suggest you invest in a RW solicitor to review your content, if you believe it would need to ultimately go to Tribunal.

You've done all the heavy lifting, you have clearly spent a lot of time getting it right, so a solicitor can give you that final pen through it to give you assurance.

I tend to agree with your DH re 'murky waters'. In principle only include statements of behaviours, actions and attitudes that have affected you personally. The fact you mention they were dismissive 3 years ago doesn't bode well. Timescales like that are not good to highlight in Tribunal.

The 3months minus 1 day is there for a reason - things that drag on for years and years become increasingly difficult to evidence and put right. Near term is always easier to deal with, as it is more likely to involve current incumbents, employees still in the company, and events in people's memories.

flowery · 12/05/2019 10:38

Don’t see why you’d hold stuff back only to submit it later.

A complaint made by you three years ago about her bullying someone else doesn’t sound like relevant evidence of her discriminating against you now.

daisychain01 · 12/05/2019 12:00

Also don't use the terms bullying and Harrassment interchangeably they are not the same. Currently, bullying is not against employment law in UK. Harrassment is a separate term legally applied to behaviours linked specifically to discrimination (Equality Act, 2010).

Bullying tends to feature in company policy under "Bullying and Harrassment" because the presence of bullying doesn't make a healthy company culture and environment. However, mentioning bullying of someone else (and 3 years ago) is not relevant if you want to stick to their misdemeanours against you, in a UK legal framework and context.

fcek · 12/05/2019 12:59

okay thank you, I am meeting the union rep tomorrow, she is not a great rep but I still will need them with me and want to do things properly. Will see what she says then the grievance will go in.

Going to finish the timeline thing now and take your points on board.

Will keep everyone updated and probably seek more advice as this goes on.

OP posts:
daisychain01 · 12/05/2019 18:18

Good luck for the meeting with your Rep tomorrow, one step at a time Smile

fcek · 13/05/2019 17:13

okay so I'm back home after my meeting with my rep

She started the meeting by saying maybe we could still find an informal solution and to send another email Hmm

I presented her with all my evidence and she was shocked and agreed that I had a good case and that the company were not following their own policies. She agreed that I am being discriminated against and is going to look over the timeline draft I made up of all incidences and give me some more advice prior to finalising the grievance letter.

One thing she did say though is that they might want to see all my evidence in advance? I'm not keen on this, I'd rather present my evidence in a hearing rather than giving them the opportunity to prepare counter arguments in advance.

Is this wrong of me?

She was impressed with my knowledge of legislation - without being too outing, it's my job to know.

Will continue to keep folk on here updated as I'll need the moral support. Shitting myself and union rep has warned me that they will go on the attack / defensive and potentially dig up dirt on me Sad

DDad is saying you must get back to work. DMum is saying no effing way, you get 6 months full pay, they need to resolve this first

I feel exhausted now Sad

OP posts:
flowery · 13/05/2019 17:22

”One thing she did say though is that they might want to see all my evidence in advance? I'm not keen on this, I'd rather present my evidence in a hearing rather than giving them the opportunity to prepare counter arguments in advance.

Is this wrong of me?

They’ll have to have time to consider it and investigate properly, so all that will happen if you don’t submit it in advance is they’ll ask for it, or, if you spring it on them in the hearing they’ll adjourn to give them time to consider it/look into it.

All you’re doing is stringing out the process longer. If you don’t want them to see it until you present it, ie you want them to read it while you talk them through it, that’s fine, but they are not going to rule on it there and then so it will be an adjournment.

fcek · 13/05/2019 19:55

I'm sitting here worrying now that they will try to get me to withdraw my formal grievance and go back to the informal approach, in which case, I'm almost certain my rep will push me to agree. But I guess I'm getting ahead of myself and stressing too much.

OP posts:
flowery · 13/05/2019 20:14

Why would you think your rep will push you to withdraw a formal grievance if she thinks you have a good case for discrimination?

fcek · 13/05/2019 20:24

She does think that but she did keep going on about how stressful it would be for me too and how 'unpleasant' it is for union reps to sit in on.

So it was a bit of a mixed meeting really. Started by telling me to do informal, then agreeing that hadn't worked and I had a good case, but also saying it is stressful and unpleasant etc.

Maybe I'm just getting myself too worked up and imagining all sorts of scenarios :(

OP posts:
MT2017 · 13/05/2019 23:28

I have just been through a grievance and appeal process. It IS unpleasant and stressful but if you feel strongly then do it. My work union also recommended informal but I took it further and am glad I did.

Do you need to provide evidence with the grievance letter or does that come later?

  • I did all of it with the letter. I was asked for additional evidence during the investigation

What evidence and how should it be structured?

  • Emails with dates; witness names / statements

how do you avoid rambling? Do you tell them everything or just some key, make them think "oh fuck" things?

  • This is your chance to tell them what you think they need to know. Don't kick yourself because you missed out something important

Is it them who needs to evidence they haven't discriminated, or me who has to evidence that they have

  • You need to evidence they have and remember that even if you do, they may see things in a different light

Do I need to source witnesses? Are witnesses needed at all? Do they get witnesses? Is there a need for witnesses to be believed?

  • They will interview people if they need to back up what you have written. You might not include any conversations or meetings overheard by anyone else though so this may not be necessary. Please be aware that witnesses sometimes are very scared themselves and may not say the same thing you have said they have.

Do they need to see my evidence or can I just say what evidence I have? Do they need copies of emails?

  • They will need to see it. Don't hide it, they will need all the evidence to make a decision

What if witnesses refuse to participate?

  • That's for the company to sort and is better than them not supporting you

How should I lay out my evidence? It is currently pages long!

  • Edit edit edit (although I think you said you have)

What if its not upheld sad. I want to stay in my job but if it's not upheld and then the appeal is not upheld, I don't know what I'd do.

  • Ok. You need to decide exactly what you want. Is is the decision going your way? Is it a resolution you can be happy with? An apology? Someone fired? A restructure? What do you want? If you are not happy, take it to appeal where there should be a wider focus on resolutions even if the decision stands.

Can an employment tribunal claim be dated from the grievance decision date as I read online that you should go through the grievance process first which is 4 blooming stages and will take ages.

  • this has been answered

My union rep is useless so doesn't have all the answers and I don't have legal cover on my house insurance. I'm trying to rely on internet sites for guidance and MN too

  • You don't need your rep to do this. Read up everything and everywhere for advice, how to word it, what happens etc. You can do this!!

My grievance is disability discrimination. Shitting myself and really want to win as I honestly cannot continue working under these situations but I love my job. I just don't like my manager. A move to another department is not an option as my qualification / experience is very specific and I definitely would not want to waste that qualification.

  • Good luck. PM me if you want any more advice (non HR, but my experience)
fcek · 14/05/2019 16:32

right, formal grievance is in.

I was right, HR did try to get me to withdraw it, by phoning my union rep and asking if we could just have a 'small' meeting and saying they are 'sorry' if I feel unsupported.

Too late imo. Grievance still went in. Union rep says HR are clearly panicking now.

@flowery @daisychain01 :

I got an email from my manager saying "hope you are alright, please do give me a call and keep in touch, I spoke with ..... (one of our clients) and they were sorry to hear you are unwell and asked me to pass on their good wishes"

Now, I am very upset because a, I made it very clear I wanted no contact from my manager (the bully) whilst off sick only from the manager above her, and b, I did not authorise any other persons being informed of my sickness absence. Is this a data protection problem? I'm not sure as I was this client's main contact and she could maybe argue that she had to explain to them?

Really upset and angry today and also still very scared of what will happen now. Needs lots of MN support and hand holding.

OP posts:
daisychain01 · 14/05/2019 17:07

@fcek

If I were you, hold fire just for the time being expressing any frustration with them. Let this situation play through. Yes they have been clumsy in the way they discussed your situation with the client. But I don't think that's the biggest fight you have on your hands. If you start to take issue with it, while the formal grievance is now in-play, it could cloud the bigger issues.

Sometimes it's about losing the battle to win the war. If you do want there to be a lasting resolution in place and you want them to treat you well and support you, see what happens in this next phase. You can always mention about them discussing your personal circumstances later in the process.

For now, go quiet, keep a cool head, and see what they do next. It sounds like they are getting the message loud and clear -but it ain't over 'til the fat lady sings as they say--

Consider your hand well and truly held x

fcek · 15/05/2019 17:55

I'm torturing myself again by reading everything I can find online about grievances, what happens at a hearing etc.

I came across a site that says grievances are rarely upheld because then they'd be giving us permission to take them to court or something?

Is that true Sad? I'm really worried now.

I'm also worrying that the investigator will be someone with zero clue about my disabilities, my required adjustments or any knowledge of equalities laws and therefore that will impact on their decision. Plus the HR equality manager is friends with the bully, you couldn't make it up Sad

This is going to be so hard. It's the public sector, does that make any difference?

I'm 99% certain that my adjustment request for any grievance hearing will also be ignored despite requesting it 3 times already.

I'm just torturing myself, argh. I need ongoing hand holding. I did not sleep again last night.

OP posts:
daisychain01 · 15/05/2019 21:40

fcek as you are public sector, ask your Occ Health for the Helpline for your organisation's EAP Employee Assistance Programme. You can book a course of counselling available in your local area.

You need RW support to help you through this. Noone on here can predict how things will end up. We don't have access to all your facts and it's clearly a complex longstanding case. You've had some factual guidance, but we can't do an effective job of supporting you emotionally the way a counsellor can, to give you an outlet to share and work through your anxiety.

Your update tells me you are catastophising, because your mind is in overdrive. You need to step away from sources of info from Google. Most of what you find on random websites has nothing to do with your case. You need to care for your own health, nobody else will!