grievance evidence help

[fcek]

For a formal grievance at work:

Do you need to provide evidence with the grievance letter or does that come later?

What evidence and how should it be structured?

how do you avoid rambling?

Do you tell them everything or just some key, make them think "oh fuck" things?

Is it them who needs to evidence they haven't discriminated, or me who has to evidence that they have - DH and I disagree, he's a private sector manager, I'm in the public sector

Do I need to source witnesses? Are witnesses needed at all? Do they get witnesses? Is there a need for witnesses to be believed?

Do they need to see my evidence or can I just say what evidence I have? Do they need copies of emails?

What if witnesses refuse to participate?

How should I lay out my evidence? It is currently pages long!

What if its not upheld . I want to stay in my job but if it's not upheld and then the appeal is not upheld, I don't know what I'd do.

Can an employment tribunal claim be dated from the grievance decision date as I read online that you should go through the grievance process first which is 4 blooming stages and will take ages.

My union rep is useless so doesn't have all the answers and I don't have legal cover on my house insurance.

I'm trying to rely on internet sites for guidance and MN too

My grievance is disability discrimination.

Shitting myself and really want to win as I honestly cannot continue working under these situations but I love my job. I just don't like my manager. A move to another department is not an option as my qualification / experience is very specific and I definitely would not want to waste that qualification.

My experience (also public sector, also disability discrimination, amongst other issues) was that the grievance took 6 months for the first stage, which did not find in my favour.

I had randomly been reading the Courts Tribunals website a couple of weeks before the three month limit was up, and saw lots of examples where people had waited for the grievance to be dealt with, only to be told they were out of time. I put in a tribunal application 4 days before the limit was up.

I was so hopeful that a satisfactory resolution would eventually be found through grievance, I submitted the tribunal forms myself, thinking that if it was actually needed later it could be tidied up by legal professionals - this was a mistake. Please seek proper legal advice before submitting tribunal forms, and make sure they are done within 3 months of the last discriminatory action. Even now my employer is trying to rule out anything that preceded 3 months, even though it was an ongoing chain of events, so I would suggest submitting earlier than later.

Be prepared for your employers to be absolute cunts in dealing with it. My (public sector) legal team will defend to the hilt and argue the bit out, even though I know I am completely justified in my actions.

After yet another incident today, I am calling in sick tomorrow. I intend never to return, after 26 years of service. It's not the way I planned to end my career. PM me if you want.

Thank you

I can see that they are now starting to 'circle the wagons' so to speak. I can see my manager's calendar and she's got meetings lined in with HR and her manager. The ones that her manager have set up say:

"[name of manager], please don't worry, this will all blow over"

anyone can see her calendar, its public across the organisation and these meetings are not set to private.

six months??? That's my worry too, but everywhere I look online says ACAS want you to exhaust the grievance process before going to a tribunal so surely the end of the grievance would count as the final incidence? There is so much conflicting information online!

I thought a grievance was just for unfair / constructive dismissal and not for those who still want to stay in their employment?

Can anyone clarify? @flowery @daisychain01 ? I'm utterly confused.

I can't really afford a lawyer (no legal cover on insurance) and I don't qualify for legal aid. Union won't provide legal support until the grievance stage is over.

The grievance process does not count as the last incident.

If you are taking issue about your employer's discriminatory treatment you need to state in your grievance when the discrimination took place. The Tribunal will frown if they detect game-playing (on either side) but they are primarily looking at evidence of your employer not complying with employment law.

If the last date of their discrimination 'event' was a couple of weeks ago, then pragmatically, it could be enough time for them to complete the grievance process and give you their response. If it's nearly 3 months since their last event, you ought to submit your application otherwise you'll be out of time.

If you're on sick leave currently it's unlikely you can call them on discrimination if you aren't at work.

Just to clarify my last point. The last event you gave in your grievance will likely be the last you can use (you're off sick - they're going to be watching themselves very closely from here on in and won't put a foot wrong) - so the clock is ticking on that 3 month deadline, for Tribunal. I'm sure that won't escape their notice.

Sorry you're going through this @fcek
I'm in the same sector and have similar issues as you for which I am in currently
In the final stages of the grievance process

I'll pm you and try and help. It's a truly shit situation and I don't wish it on anyone.

The main points to remember ;

It's not your fault

Write down everything you can remember regarding any claims to discrimination.
It doesn't matter that you might not have done this before- do it now as you may find you remember things you had forgotten

When did the last act of discrimination that you're complaining about happen? What was the date? You have 3 months -1 day to raise a claim with acas and start early conciliation.

HR are not on your side. They will do their utmost to ensure that the company are protected.

For the reason above, they will not uphold your grievance. Don't take it personally. It doesn't mean you're not believed. It means that they're looking out for the companies reputation. They cannot admit that they are guilty of an illegal act.

Think about what you want out of this. Do you want to return? They may offer you a compromise agreement which would mean paying you some compensation and terminating your employment. You'd be forced to sign a non disclosure agreement in that scenario.

You are able to submit to acas whilst going through the grievance process if it means that you would otherwise be out of time. I would advise leaving this until a day or two before you have to as to have enough time to speak to them and ensure the info is all correct x

The last incident with my manager was 14th May - contacting me after I specifically requested she did not and revealing within her email that she had disclosed my sickness absence to a client.

The last mention of something discriminatory from her was 21st March

The last discriminatory action from HR was 9th May.

Which one should it be - assuming nothing else happens (which I fully expect will - I've made a reasonable adjustment request for the grievance hearing which I am 99% confident they will forget).

So part of me is worried about missing the tribunal timeline and part of me knows that the discrimination is likely to continue anyway.

Also I don't want to leave so that is kind of putting me off a tribunal claim also. I'd much rather it didn't come to that but I may end up too late so I'm conflicted.

Honestly? I'd go for the 21st March as your counting date, so ensure you have it submitted by 21st June. The later act by HR on the 9th May - a tribunal might accept that as the last date, but it's not worth the risk and legal arguments.

Don't worry too much about the future. Your focus right now needs to be the issue at hand. They will try and push things back on you. Don't allow that to happen. Push right on back and question why they don't think it's discrimination

Harassment and discrimination are clearly defined in law. Take a look at your work policies and use them to your advantage. What does your dignity at work policy say? What about reasonable adjustments due to disability.

Feel free to PM me. I'm happy to look over your grievance and give you some points from an outsider Perspective x

Also, you are claiming separate issues there. You are claiming disability discrimination and also harassment. Make it clear how each incidence made you feel.

I wouldn't supply any evidence with your original letter. They will invite you to a meeting and you can provide evidence then. Don't let them see evidence before speaking to you.

Also, make sure that when you have a meeting you take someone else in with you. My advice would be to ask someone to take minutes who is not HR and to ensure that they document everything that was mentioned at the meeting and not to miss out anything that might not suit them to have in writing

Thank you, I'm happy to share my grievance letter with you (and anyone else who feels they can offer support) - I'd definitely welcome all the support I can get. Not sure how to attach anything to a PM though. The letter is short, the evidence is quite a lot though!

No I haven't submitted any supporting evidence and I don't want to. They haven't asked for this (yet) but when the hearing is called, what if they ask for evidence in advance? Do I pretend they didn't ask that? Would it count against me if I did not present evidence in advance? The grievance policy does not mention evidence in advance.

Early conciliation via ACAS will buy you some extra time because it stops the clock. So I'd go to ACAS early June maybe. No solicitor needed for that though you kind of need union on board before then

You are claiming disability discrimination and also harassment.

Technically Harrassment and Discrimination are two sides of the same coin. Harrassment is any undesirable and unwarranted behaviour in the context of discrimination.

Without knowing the full facts of fcek's case, it's important not to speculate or assume anything.

Early Conciliation normally happens when the employer has provided their conclusion to the employee, whether they uphold (fully, partially or not at all) the formal grievance.

You could march ahead and get ACAS involved before that confirmation, but it isn't a good idea to rush the process, because at Tribunal the employer could maintain that "we were in the process of investigating fcek's grievance and we were interrupted by ACAS trying to move into Early Conciliation prematurely".

It could significantly work against you to be seen to be rushing through these delicate stages of negotiation. Please be aware that most organisations stiff-arm ACAS, they can be a thorn in the side of the employer, depending on the case. The employer does not have to negotiate if they don't want to. Believe me, any negotiation they do get into is only in the company's best interests, not out of the goodness of their heart, or because they care.

They can refuse to take ACAS calls or do anything other than play games (eg deliberately extending EC timeline to the maximum, with no intention of negotiating). Pure delay tactics, with the intention of wearing the person down, but they will always maintain they were "just working through the process".

OP you would be well advised to invest £200 in an initial assessment by a solicitor. Everything else you find on the web, or are advised on here, can never substitute a thorough review of your circumstances. Anything else is pure guess-work.

thank you for that clarification, it helps.

union rep won't let me involve a lawyer unless it's their own and say I'm not at that stage yet.

Apparently they won't offer any more help if I get my own lawyer.

Yes, that is true about unions. You will have to be very clear that you are worried about time limits and go over the head of your rep if you feel you are being ignored.

Daisy is right about not rushing though and I have seen claims where judges have allowed out of time claims to proceed because the claimant wanted to see the grievance process through and they decided to allow the claims because "it was just and equitable to do so".

It is possible that any rejection of your grievance would also be discriminatory if it wasn't sympathetic to making adjustments you'd asked for so I think rushing isn't maybe necessary as the grievance thing could play out ok

okay so they've now asked for supporting evidence but I'm a bit unsure as to what to give them and how much.

I've written down everything in a timeline, with dates, that I feel is relevant to my grievance but I do worry it may come across as 'nit picking' - eg I asked joe blogs for reasonable adjustments and joe bloggs ignored me and I told my manager and manager did nothing.

I have a lot of more serious incidents but I personally feel everything should be included to show a pattern of behaviour / lack of support etc. Would this be right?

Do I just give them the timeline or should I provide supporting emails too? Or leave that for the hearing?

I've asked my union rep already and she just said to send everything?

If you hold stuff back, then they can't make a decision on the full facts. I'd be inclined to send everything, and make sure it is properly ordered, indexed, cross referenced etc. Make it easy for the decision maker to follow the evidence.

I've been on both sides of this, and as a decision maker I have been handed a bundle of e-mails with no explanation, lots of repetition, and no structure. Whilst I gave it all very careful consideration, it did make it very hard to follow.

And btw, asking for reasonable adjustments and being ignored, then escalating it to a higher manager is NOT nitpicking. This will be precisely the sort of thing you will need to show at a tribunal - that you made your employer aware you required reasonable adjustments.

Thanks @NigellaAwesome

I have come across some previous investigation reports on the staff intranet (for everyone to see, not private, not encrypted)

The common recommendations appear to be mediation / no further action, which appears pretty disappointing and worrying from my point of view.

Although none of these examples include discrimination.

If you have been on both sides, what if the investigator / decision maker has no prior knowledge of discrimination or E&D? I fear that could influence the outcome.

Possibly very outing but I work in the company's equalities department! You can't make it up!

I think lack of knowledge, and inherent bias against anyone making a grievance is why so many cases end up going to tribunal. And that doesn't even include all the ones where people just give up and leave.

well the head of HR is now trying to get me to withdraw my grievance. I refused.

Their treatment of me as someone with a long term health condition, who has been in and out of hospital, as well as their attitude towards my other disabilities and their treatment of me when my DC was seriously ill has just been shocking.

So I'm not withdrawing any grievance.

I'm kind of glad I have them scared now though.

On what basis have they asked you to withdraw. They must be utterly clueless. I mean why should you? What benefit would there be to you to withdraw?. It doesn't make sense. They should be investigating the facts with the relevant people.

probably because they don't see it as an issue, I don't know, my union rep has another call with the head of HR tomorrow so we will see.

Today has been another development. I found a document on the intranet written by my manager to her manager (after I submitted my grievance) where she writes that I am being "difficult", "refusing to inform them of the reasons for my absence" (not true, and I can evidence not true", I am "employed at the wrong grade", I am "easily offended", and I am "in a little huff"

I'm really upset about this TBH. It was not confidential or password protected, anyone in the organisation can see it. It's saved on the staff intranet.

This is going to get so much worse. They are making it all about me, me not performing, me being difficult, me not being capable.

I wanted to go back to my job, I like my job, but how can I work with this lot after this?

Oh and HR asked for permission to send me chocolate and flowers to help cheer me up. Asked me via my union rep. I told my rep thanks but no thanks (but wanted to say it in a much ruder way)

I still haven't had a date for the grievance hearing yet. I offered to send them all my evidence and they said I should wait until invitation to a hearing.

Timeline is now 42 pages. I keep finding more evidence and more things keep happening even after the grievance. I am trying hard not to be too outing though so apologies for any vagueness.

Would appreciate thoughts from @daisychain01 @flowery and anyone else. Sorry for keep asking for help but I don't really have many people in RL I can talk to - my poor mum is worried I'll get sacked - and I don't trust anyone from work anymore. My best friend is suffering from PND so I don't want to bother her either.

Thanks everyone who has helped so far.

Sorry to hear you're going through it 😞
Tbh, you sound like you're in the same place I was in several months ago.

What is it that you want from them? An apology? Compensation? A new job in a different department?

I've just lodged my tribunal claim. I've exhausted the acas EC period and I'm still waiting on an outcome to my grievance appeal. My original grievance went in in February. They're dragging it out and I expect it'll continue to be the case for a while yet.

Whatever happens, make sure that you're in time. But decide what you want from this. They're never ever going to admit that they've discriminated against you, even if the evidence is overwhelming. They won't admit that they've acted illegally and hoping that they will or that you'll get an apology is just pie in the sky unfortunately.

If you're off sick at the moment then it might be better for you to continue to stay off until this process is over and look for new work in the meantime.

yes I am looking for new work just in case but its hard to find anything at a similar salary.

I would like to return to the same role but with a different line manager.

They are continuing to discriminate against me whilst off sick, most recent (and actually worst!) incident was last week. Can't say as it's outing.

So I'm still in the tribunal timeline. I'll put last week as the last incident unless another one occurs.

I'm very angry and very hurt.

It's been 2 weeks now since my grievance went in and no grievance hearing date. Is this normal? I think they will try to drag it out too.

It's been 2 weeks now since my grievance went in and no grievance hearing date. Is this normal? I think they will try to drag it out too.

If your grievance document is upwards of 42 pages, that's a significant amount of detail for them to review. Do you have visibility of your employer's Grievance Procedure?. It normally states some target commitment for timescales by when they will respond to a formal grievance submission, which will of course depend on whether they will use an external investigator or cover the process entirely using internal resource. They would for example allocate a Hearing Manager, and that involves time to determine who is available.

Have they even acknowledged receipt?