Traveling for work - fed up

[TedsBaker]

I work in a team which delivers specialist training. We used to just do London but have since expanded and now travel all over the UK. There are standard materials that we use but the preparation includes a lot of research and creating parts bespoke to the company we visit, so there's a fair amount of work that goes into it on top of the 3-4 hours of the training itself.

We do this 1-4 times per month and as you can imagine it's pretty tiring and stressful. To save costs we often leave London early and avoid overnights at almost all costs.

My issue is that we are not given any time back or given flexible working hours to recover. No working from home the day after training, for example, no time off in leiu.

I raised this with my line manager and she snapped at me that we were all tired, not just me, and that I wasn't going to get special treatment. My contact is apparently very clear that from time to time I will be expected to undertake as hoc tasks which means I have to work beyond my contracted hours.

I'm clearly not asking for special treatment, I'm just fed up of feeling run down and exhausted all the time and I know my colleagues feel the same although they have not raised the matter with our manager directly. One is actively looking for another job. We are all mid-late 20s and our manager is about 35 so we think she just doesn't trust us, although she has never raised performance concerns with me or any of my colleagues (according to them).

We also usually have to wait ages for holidays to be approved, she gets annoyed if we book time off over scheduled training days but as the calendar is packed full of training or prep work it's basically impossible to pick a "good" time off. One guy dropped out of a group holiday because by the time she approved his days off the flight prices had tripled and he didn't feel it was worth it.

Is there anything I can do or shall I just admit defeat and look for a different job myself?

I would argue it isn't 'ad-hoc' if it's 1-4 times a month. That's predictable work.

You all need to band together and raise it as a complaint, including what you'd like to be done about it. It sounds highly excessive imo.

How many extra hours is it you’re working 1-4 times a month?

Does the company have a HR dept? If so, it may be worth a discussion outlining the main concerns (travelling, travel time not given back, line manager dismissing exhaustion concerns).

There's also couple of things that come to my mind:

• working time directive legislation covers you for breaks, travel time, annual leave and general hours per week worked. Check if you are now working over 48 hours per week on average over a period of say 12 weeks, include the travel time. If you are, and you haven't opted out of the WTR 48 hour limit, then the company is breaching this legislation.

• a joint grievance complaint could work. If there is a union (assuming not) they could help. If there are more of you saying the same things, it will have more crediability. It may be worth formally writing down the main issues and submitting this to your manager and their manager. Once it's in writing they have to respond / meet with you.

Sorry you're feeling low about this.

Is there anything you can do on the actual hours under the Working Time Directive? As your hours spent travelling should fall under working time, as well as the time spent delivering the training once in the location, and the travel time to get back to HQ (or home). Both in terms of number of hours you can do in a day, and ensuring adequate rest periods, as well as overall hours in a working week.

Another point from WTR is that you should have 11 hours between finishing work one day and starting work the next day. Again include travel time. I would maybe put your concerns in writing and show them to colleagues then ask which of them want to approach management with you. They can obviously add their own concerns. It sounds like your working patterns have changed significantly from occasional travel to regular travel.

If it is only 1 - 4 times a month then I think it's a bit whiny to complain, especially if it's in your contract that this can happen from time to time.

I'm in a similar situation, I often have to travel. Sometimes a day trip which can involve leaving at 5am and getting back at 11pm, bit also often short trips to Europe with overnight stays. It's knackering but also to the benefit of my career so I put up with it!

Think of how lucky you are instead that you get to travel and see the country (even if it's just from a motorway), rather than being stuck in an office all the time.

so essentially they have a long hours culture

there's nothing in your contract that says anything about time off in lieu etc?

I think you can do is make complete assertive statements e.g. "I will be taking 3 hours off on Friday to compensate for xyz on Thursday" and see how they react.

did they ask you about the Working Time Directive when you were employed? a lot of places ask you to opt out don't they?

it might be that you have to get a different job. There are plenty of places that just expect long hours and if you won't suck it up, they will get rid of you anyway.

I'm in a similar situation, I often have to travel. Sometimes a day trip which can involve leaving at 5am and getting back at 11pm, bit also often short trips to Europe with overnight stays. It's knackering but also to the benefit of my career so I put up with it!

But that's your decision and choice to do this, and clearly you have ambition and don't suffer if you travel and have early starts and late finishes. For the OP, it's obviously tiring her out and it doesn't sound like there is any benefit to her for doing it (no WFH, or lieu time).

From experience, you can't sustain those kind of hours for long periods of time, eventually you burn out or it significantly effects mental health or work life balance.

Some people can do it and some people can't. It takes a certain type of individual to work in regional, national and international roles, so don't assume that everyone can do it.

Think of how lucky you are instead that you get to travel and see the country (even if it's just from a motorway), rather than being stuck in an office all the time

Again, your personal opinion. Travelling for some is very stressful, and tiring, especially if they're not used to it.

My own DH is awful travelling for short journeys. He's shattered and incoherent even after 30 minutes driving! I on the other hand am like you, and can do 3-4 hour journeys, there and back in one day and can still get up at 6am the next day and do it again!

I think you can do is make complete assertive statements e.g. "I will be taking 3 hours off on Friday to compensate for xyz on Thursday" and see how they react.

Very good advice.

I've done this in previous companies and it has made people consider the situation.

RosaWaiting

there's nothing in your contract that says anything about time off in lieu etc?

The company culture is "friendly and flexible" but working hours are at the manager's discretion apparently.

How many hours are you actually doing ? Does it bring you below min wage ?

Aintnon

Think of how lucky you are instead that you get to travel and see the country (even if it's just from a motorway), rather than being stuck in an office all the time

Sorry but that's just not true. Sitting on trains for hours on end sides, we're always under so much time pressure that we never see anything besides the street from the train station to the office. I am still stuck in an office most days, but when I'm on training it's worse because there is no opportunity to relax at all, clients like to chat throughout lunch and we have to be alert and "on" the whole time.

And as for it helping my career... Well, who knows? I've not had the time to stop and think, it's always go go go.

"Manager's discretion" is the kind of contract I will no longer sign

sorry. I would still try the assertive thing - some of these spluttering incompetents just won't be able to say no.

sorry we cross posted

is there any chance you can afford to resign without anything to go to? It sounds like job hunting will be really hard with these hours as well.

What does your contract say about the Working Time Directive? Were you asked to opt out?

TBH, 1-4 times a month doesn't sound that much to me. All through my working life I've done this kind of travel and it's just part and parcel of the job.

Whatever you do, do not say I will be taking 3 hours off on Friday to compensate for xyz on Thursday!. If you did that in my company you'd get very short shrift and it wouldn't do you any favours at all!

BIWI

No, I don't think being quite so assertive will do me any good at all.

TBH, 1-4 times a month doesn't sound that much to me. All through my working life I've done this kind of travel and it's just part and parcel of the job.

I mean, if you enjoy it and you're used to it then fine I guess, I find it difficult to wake up at least an hour earlier, come home way after dinner, then come in for 8.30am the next day as though nothing had happened. I'm shattered.

RosaWaiting

Is there any chance you can afford to resign without anything to go to?

Technically yes, but that would mean dipping into house deposit money, which I would really rather not do.

The thing is, I don't dislike my job. I just dislike feeling so tired all the time and getting zero leeway. It's extra irritating because all the job adverts the company puts out go on about the great flexibility and work life balance!

I'm also worried that I'll just end up in the same situation - if my company lies about flexibility, how do I know the next one won't?

I completely get it OP, I would be absolutely shattered as well

re the company, the thing to do, IMHO, is tell the truth at interview - say you are working very long hours and it doesn't work for you, and you're not prepared to do it again. In fact, for my last two jobs, I called up and spoke to the manager before even doing an application, some of these people are just wasting everyone's time.

also look for a contract that builds in TOIL etc for the longer days. "manager's discretion" just means "some evil git with no consideration will make you work long hours".

I notice you haven't answered any queries re Working Time Directive so I'm guessing you opted out.

the way the company presents itself means nothing if the contract says "manager's discretion".

What hours is it you’re actually doing, this 1-4 times a month OP?

RosaWaiting

I notice you haven't answered any queries re Working Time Directive so I'm guessing you opted out.

Yeah I did, stupidly. They did it would mean that I would have to have strict hours and wouldn't be and to take advantage of flexible working! I think I was hugely naive.

flowery

What hours is it you’re actually doing, this 1-4 times a month OP?

It varies but this week was pretty typical:
Woke up at 6am (instead of 7am) to ensure I was in London for an 8am train for 2 hours. Arrive in city at 10am, training starts at 10:30 and goes on until 3pm. Lunch is in the room with clients who ask questions. Train back to London at 3.30, get in to London at 5:45. Finally get home for 7.30pm.

Then the next day it's back to the office for 8.30am as usual.

This really depends what you are paid. If it is anything over £30k+ then, that’s just called a job.

Anything below, then you could say you would like the travel time that falls outside working hours to be given back in lieu.

Cant believe you are complaining about preparing for training sessions. That’s your job.

PersonaNonGarter

It's certainly less than £30k. I think my manager is paid just a bit more than that so I have no hope of reaching the amount unless I get promoted which would at least keep me from traveling so much

Where did I complain about preparing for training sessions?

Sounds very unfair.

I have to work late occasionally and we get time in lieu.

It sounds unfair and you should get time in lieu or be allowed to come in late the next day.

WTD wouldn’t help you anyway, you’d have to work more than 48 hours a week on average over 17 weeks, and if you’re only doing that 1-4 times a month you wouldn’t come close.

I think there are two issues here really, one of them is whether you are paid enough to work a bit of a long day 1-4 times a month, and the second thing is why you are finding that quite so debilitating, in your 20s.

DH gets up at 6.15 and is usually out of the house between 7.30 and 8.45 everyday. Sometimes he gets home later. If he gets home at 7.30 that’s definitely early. It’s not about competitive long hours, I’m just saying that the length of your day doesn’t sound massively excessive 1-4 times a month. I thought you were going to say you were getting in at 11pm or something.

I know that both travelling and training are tiring, because I do both myself, and I agree it would be nice if your manager agreed to working from home or something the next day. But if I’d not been able to cope with that kind of a day on a regular basis in my 20s I would not have been able to do my job.

I don’t mean to be unsympathetic, and you may not be paid enough to be expected to do that without additional remuneration. But it doesn’t sound excessive to me, and flexible time to “recover” would be nice rather than essential.