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Stay in Civil Service?

32 replies

PurpleDaisy2114 · 22/04/2019 17:09

Happy bank holiday all- usual reflections here albeit I have been very stressed and anxious about work recently.
I am 41, married and have 2 children with additional needs. Husband works shifts full time. I work part time (20 hours per week). I have worked for civil service for over 15 years, starting as an AO, progressing to EO and have had TDA as a HEO bit have but unable to secure permanently.
I've been unsuccessful in several HEO interviews recently and have been told I'm too humble and my work largely goes under the radar as I don't shout about it.i prefer to get the job done and take pride in my work. However I am really struggling with working at EO grade again. I know I am capable of HEO work but really struggle at interview.
I have applied for jobs in other civil service depts but am genuinely not sure I can handle much more rejection. I need a good mentor but have struggled to find one. A girl almost half my age who has an SEO mentor really secured promotion and it did sting. She is capable but I couldn't help but feel it was a kick in the teeth too.
I have a degree in English, I'm a INFJ for those familiar with Myers Briggs.
I think I will have to sell my soul to get on in my current dept andI am tired of all the game playing.
Any advice?

OP posts:
PurpleDaisy2114 · 22/04/2019 17:55

Ah anyone?

OP posts:
Settlersofcatan · 22/04/2019 18:02

I'm a civil servant too (g6) - would say you need to find someone who can really help you with interview practice. Would suggest an SEO - someone who has fairly recently recently been an HEO so can give you good recent experience.

I would also suggest getting involved with a corporate initiative of some sort as it is a good way to network and get noticed. Basically put your hand up a lot when volunteers are called for.

Other departments may well be the better way to go as you'll be stuck in people's minds as a long term EO in your department and that perception is hard to shift.

Finally - try not to take rejection personally. There is a knack to being successful at interviews especially in the civil service and you just need to find someone who can help you get it.

Isleepinahedgefund · 22/04/2019 18:57

The fact that you are getting through to interviews is brilliant, that means you can concentrate on interview technique. Although if I were coaching you I’d encourage you to start with the other stuff (your confidence and frustration).

I’d suggest you get on Civil Service Learning and access the coaching service to find a mentor/coach. I coach people and I have a very good track record in helping get people through the recruitment process. I could give you all the interview tips in the world, but that’s not why coaching helps people. It’s having someone on your side to support you. Also remember it can take some time to get your confidence up.

Incidentally, I’m just coming to the end of coaching someone who is INFJ and it’s been the longest coaching process to date, but he’s finally getting the EO to HEO promotion he was after. He has also been through a lot of mentors and struggled to find the right one, apparently I am it! He had a lot of trouble seeing the value in what he was doing and shouting about it, same as you describe, and he had got extremely frustrated as an EO to the point where his frustration became a significant barrier to his success. We’re 9 months in to coaching and it’s just falling into place for him - usually coaching lasts no more than 3 months and people have met their goals.

When looking for a coach/mentor, make sure you have an initial meeting or conversation with them before deciding to start coaching with them, and don’t be afraid to say no thank you if it doesn’t feel right for you. Choose someone who has recent experience of interviews as a panel member, not just as an applicant. That’s where all my most useful tips come from.

PurpleDaisy2114 · 22/04/2019 19:14

Thank you Settle for taking the time to reply I have moved Districts a few times but yes I completely understand what you are saying.

OP posts:
PurpleDaisy2114 · 22/04/2019 19:21

Thank you Isleep too- that is interesting that a fellow INFJ has taken a while! I wonder if there is something wrong with me sometimes as it all feels so alien to me. My interview feedback I needed to give more depth and I'm hitting the 4s but am just not getting those top marks.
I have felt like a H these last few months but feel that I must now get back in the EO box, shut up and get on with it. I've been told off for my exuberance as they call it and for crossing over with work others are doing when I've previously been advised to be innovative, get noticed and be visible etc. I do find it confusing!
I will look on CSL for the coaching service and have a think about some some SEOs who have recently progressed. The SEO who was supporting me is long term. She has been a great critical friend but I do need to feel L have someone in my corner and someone who believes in me. They have encouraged me to be resilient which I am trying to be.
Thank you both again.

OP posts:
Isleepinahedgefund · 22/04/2019 19:54

its difficult if not impossible to get “back in the box” now that you know what it’s like to be out of it. I think once you’ve experience the higher level of responsibility it’s really hard to relinquish. From what you say, I’d be looking to move elsewhere as it sounds like you’re not being supported to move onwards/upwards by your management.

I was promoted to SEO relatively recently and am currently heading up a project my G7 has delegated to me because I know lots about the area of work and she/everyone else there knows nothing. It’s not been long and I already know I couldn’t go back to HEO work, but also I know that when this project is done I won’t want to go back to regular SEO work because I will have been working above my grade for quite a long time.

Have a look at what you can do outside your normal duties/department - go to Civil Service Live and look at Civil Service Local. The CS local academies are a great way to boost confidence and make connections.

MrsSchadenfreude · 22/04/2019 20:23

I’m a mentor, not a coach, and have got quite a few people through the promotion interview for HEO jobs. Which department are you, and are you based in London?

I think women do struggle to sell themselves, and just get on with doing a good job, which isn’t always recognised, because we don’t shout about it.

Loopytiles · 22/04/2019 20:27

Interview technique and confidence can be improved OP, and lots and lots of people (in various fields) struggle with it, and do get there in the end.

daisychain01 · 22/04/2019 20:51

OP I presume you're plugged into Civil Service Jobs, and getting the emails when a suitable vacancy or campaign is launched?

  • Take time to look closely at how the Job Description is worded, what attributes and skills are of priority interest at that Grade.
  • think of (and write down) a list of tangible examples/scenarios of times you've met the criteria they're looking for.
  • Even if you don't have direct experience, think of projects or activities where you might have, given the opportunity, and visualise yourself having achieved what they're looking for. It's amazing how the power of positive thought can give you that confidence you need in the interview.

If you locate a mentor, use the above information to fine tune any aspects where you need support to up your skills.

Also to get to the next level, you need to "be" that person now, so try operating at the higher level, in your current role as a trial run!

Polarbearflavour · 23/04/2019 09:56

I’m an INFJ and leaving the CS. I find the style of working and culture not in line with my belief and values.

PurpleDaisy2114 · 23/04/2019 16:25

Thank you for all the replies. Not based in London. In DWP...

OP posts:
PurpleDaisy2114 · 23/04/2019 16:26

What are you going to do instead Polarbear?

OP posts:
Polarbearflavour · 23/04/2019 16:49

PurpleDaisy2114 - not sure yet! I’ll do some part time temping and hopefully a PGCE next year.

I have grown to hate the CS. I’ve resigned without anything to go to. That’s partly because I am being subject to a stage 1 disciplinary hearing after never having trouble working anywhere else.

And also because I have a CS non job!

livinglongerwithcalgon · 23/04/2019 17:11

There have already been some great tips on here. I’ve recruited a fair few people across EO and HEO, these are common grades for lots of people keen to “get the grade”. As a result they tend to attract a lot more applicants, so you’re already in a more saturated field, especially in a department like DWP (similar occurs in other large Ops departments).

In my experience, the people who do fine, just miss the mark, or get 4s but not a job offer, tend to have some similar features. For instance:

  • Often, the focus is on ensuring they are ticking the right boxes in their interview answers, a lot of focus on what they have done but not enough on how they have done it (not a step by step account, I’m talking behaviours) and what the result of that has been.
  • I find examples are more geared to strong performance at their grade, rather than meeting the grade they’re trying to promote to. I understand that by the way! You really have to draw out how you can operate at the higher grade. Funnily enough TDA isn’t enough to demonstrate that, because too often TDA gets used as a resourcing plug so just talking about doing a role at a higher grade isn’t enough - it comes back to the behaviours and the result/impact.
  • The other big flag is people who come across as ‘chasing the grade’, rather than wanting the role. So maybe they say the right things and tick the right boxes, but I don’t get any sense that they’re actually interested in that particular role, what their motivation for applying is, because the motivation is solely ‘promotion’. There’s nothing wrong with being motivated by getting a promotion, but you also need to sell your passion and interest in the job you’re applying for.
  • Not ensuring examples translate well. For instance, I worked in a corporate function. When I have had EO or HEO roles available in the past, I’ve had a lot of interested from colleagues in operational delivery roles. Not a problem at all. But when we’re in an interview and they’re referring to things that I have no clue of (eg, I don’t process benefits, I’m close to the department’s work and familiar with a number of things outside of my professional area, but I don’t know the intricacies of all of the different acronyms and forms and processes as it isn’t my day to day. I’ll ask for explanations or what the transferable elements are, but I don’t always get a clear answer and some people are genuinely surprised that I don’t know what they’re talking about - sometimes we can get so caught in our ‘world’, equally if people come into my profession there are plenty of things that aren’t immediately clear. So it’s important to ensure the evidence is clear no matter who is on the panel (and again... behaviours and impact!).

These might not apply to you but as they’re common in my experience I thought I’d share! Panels you’re in front of have likely seen the same, so they’re wary of these possibilities and want to be sure that the person not only meets the grade but is also keen to get stuck into the role and will be a good addition.

Good luck Flowers

PurpleDaisy2114 · 23/04/2019 20:37

Sorry to hear about the disciplinary Polar Sad
Thank you for your post calgon- you make some great points. You have all been really helpful x

OP posts:
livinglongerwithcalgon · 24/04/2019 13:21

As an aside, I would encourage people not to write off the CS as a whole if they have a bad experience (not pointed at Polar, I’m sorry to hear it hasn’t been positive). The CS is a huge place, made up of many departments and agencies, and of a multitude of professions too. Each have their own culture. Whilst there is a prevailing CS narrative, such as a focus on leadership, learning from outside and valuing diversity and inclusion, the day to day experience will vary even by office.

However, the CS is one of the few places in my experience where there is less emphasis placed on things like qualifications* and more on what you have done and can do, plus good benefits (in terms of things like maternity leave, sick pay, pension) compared with other public sector bodies and private sector. The fact that these are available to all grades and not just senior grades is a really good thing imo. Nonetheless you have to find the right place for you, in terms of department and profession at least. I know lots of people who don’t like working in my department for example, whereas I and loads of my colleagues think it’s great; on the other hand I used to work in a department that other people thought was ‘desirable’ but it just wasn’t for me. Equally I know that within a department the profession you’re in (eg Op Del, Finance, Policy etc) will also heavily shape your experience, I’ve known quite a few people to cross profession. The CS is the kind of place that generally supports that - you will unfortunately always get some managers or offices where that isn’t happening, but that isn’t the way senior leaders want it to be and a lot of different things are being done to try and reduce and ultimately eliminate that.

*theres a caveat to this, in that certain specific agencies and professional areas require specific qualifications and notice these things more, however on the whole I would say it’s not important for the main government departments; eg on CS Jobs I rarely see qualification requirements for roles in my profession at any grade, usually there is a ‘desirable’ for a specific qualification which is directly relevant to my profession but it’s usually accompanied by saying that the organisation will support studying for it which is commonplace. I’ve only seen one advert in the last 5 years that required that qualification, and it was in a smaller specialist agency.

FookMeFookYou · 24/04/2019 13:51

A few years ago I went into the civil service at HEO grade and left after 4 months - the culture just wasn't for me. No autonomy and too much red tape.

One of my tasks in that short time was to send out long service letters (for which there was a backlog when I started) and some ppl had been there for 30, even 40+ years. That was the final straw for me as I couldn't think of anything worse.

Maybe it's time for a change OP

Polarbearflavour · 24/04/2019 14:21

I’ve worked in 3 different departments. I’ve also worked in the City so guess where I’m going back to!

My last job has been particularly bad if you read my post further down entitled “my manager doesn’t think I’m working my hours.”

I now have a stage one disciplinary meeting in 3 weeks just before I leave. The main reason seems to be that I don’t have a specialist qualification for the role so I won’t pass my probationary period. I’m currently studying for it and no mention was ever made of a date when I needed to possess it by!

The most unpleasant place I have ever worked with really nasty little people - all serving military personnel.

Maybe other departments are better.

daisychain01 · 24/04/2019 15:40

I would encourage people not to write off the CS as a whole if they have a bad experience

I agree with this. It's like saying "don't work in industry/private sector, it's awful ". The amount of threads on here is fair indication that there are no guarantees and you're just as likely to have poor management/non-jobbitis/bad behaviour in an SME or a global corporate as you are in the public sector. It's swings and roundabouts wherever you end up.

The flexibility, better worklife balance and less back-shabby culture in general (and pension!) definitely makes it a good option to consider. Also there is significant adherence to diversity and equality. They bend over backwards to support, IME.

PurpleDaisy2114 · 24/04/2019 18:56

Am finding this really useful- thank you all so much. I think I have had enough of ops if I'm honest, I'm happier getting on with a project and seeing it through to completion than the firefighting of day to day ops life. I've been to CS local events and enjoyed meeting other depts, MHCLG for instance and possibly DFE too.
I am left wing but keep this under wraps at work.

OP posts:
PurpleDaisy2114 · 24/04/2019 18:59

Fookme, I do detest how institutionalised some staff can be but then there are many who work 12 hour days and give the job their all. I've brought work home, arrived ultra early, worked late and through lunch but understand this is not a solution long term.

OP posts:
FookMeFookYou · 24/04/2019 19:11

@PurpleDaisy2114 my point was more that I absolutely knew it wasn't the right environment for me and no matter the level, I just wouldn't have been happy there. You've done 15 years already but as others have said you can go to another gov dept or agency and find the culture is different.

I had no chance as I didn't like the culture, the processes, the salary... anything really. It was a rebound job after being made redundant though so a bit of a shock. Most of my experience is third sector.

We've all gone the extra mile but no one thanks you for it so my general rule is that if you feel you've hit a brick wall, don't have a decent mentor and/or there's a clear hierarchy (requirement to ass kiss) then you do your talking with your legs.

PurpleDaisy2114 · 26/04/2019 09:54

Hi- have just had chance to really digest thread. I'm on AL currently and have to admit whilst I feel better for having the break I still feel frustrated about work. I am however sat on a cafe writing a plan!!
Yes I am on CS jobs and get alerts. My old manager who is an SEO has offered to mentor me. She supported me with competencies and is very much a critical friend. However we haven't done any interview practice, it's all me listening to her advice- which tends to be spot on. She has been a panel member but has been a SEO for a while.
My question is what distinguishes an EO from HEO? I think it's to do with being practice rather than reactive and leading by example at all times but I must admit I struggle to find many good role models. I can see that people who are positive get on better and understand some of the game playing but am would say one of my greatest strengths is my integrity so I struggle with this.
I really do appreciate all your input 👍

OP posts:
daisychain01 · 26/04/2019 14:03

What distinguishes an EO from an HEO?

It's the level of responsibility they carry in the work they do:

EOs tend to be support roles for the higher grades, they offer business and policy support and include roles such as executive assistants, finance, HR, IT and communications specialists.

SEO/HEO grades are policy officers and officials with specific policy responsibilities.

DameCelia · 26/04/2019 16:47

Hi OP, and everyone else. I'm really interested in your thread as I'm currently applying for CS jobs after an unplanned 2 1/2 year break from being a solicitor.

I don't want to go back to legal practice so I'm trying to establish what my transferable skills are, and not sell myself short due to lack of confidence.

I see some people have talked about mentors and coaching, can non CS staff access these services privately?

Sorry to derail but your thread struck a strong chord for me!

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