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Original poster

Manager has lied to hr investigator, I have no proof. I'm stuffed, right?

33 replies

Cloudydaynow · 19/02/2019 13:22

Scared someone will recognise this so NC but no idea what to do now, can anyone advise?

Super small company, had no hr in place previously. Not sure how detailed to be, but I did something with the agreement of my manager ( I only have meeting minutes for this which were not signed, never had been by the previous people in my position either so naively didn't question that or think anything of it). It's been called into question by someone new, and my manager has said all along not to worry, she may or may not remember agreeing to it (a year and a few months ago) but she would never deny it, she could only say the truth which was she "didn't remember but wouldve agreed". The only issue I have with that is it was absolutely spoken about and agreed or never would have happened! I can remeber the conversation pretty much word for word!

Anyway, they have now employed a hr person to investigate. I have no idea if what my manager has been saying to me is different to what she's been telling everyone else, I suspect so or I doubt it would have gotten to this. But, at the interview with the investigator, he produced a letter recently written by my manager saying she never agreed to anything at all. Not that she didn't remember but would have done, just that she didn't. I know myself that she was told to by someone who has some kind of grudge against me but she will I'm sure, never admit that now, probably not even to me. So now on paper it looks like I've made it all up. I KNOW I haven't but it's now my word against theirs.

I'm sure from what I've read up on that it will likely be looked at as gross misconduct and I'll be sacked. I know the investigator said they have to go on reasonable doubt but I just can't see how they could reasonably believe one person against a bunch of others. My manager has been avoiding me for a few weeks for the most part, while inbetween telling me not to worry about it, she'll never deny it etc but now she has completely. I'm Not part of a union unfortunately and have no other person to really help. I feel like I should just quit as being without a job will be the outcome anyway but I don't know if maybe there is a tiny glimmer of hope at all. Anyone been through this or know how it goes?

OP posts:
WH1SPERS · 19/02/2019 13:24

I’m so sorry, but I don’t think this will end well for you. I hope you are applying for other jobs every day now.

TheInvestigator · 19/02/2019 13:26

Surely the minutes from the meeting in which she instructed you to do this thing will carry some weight, even if not signed as they can look at all other minutes and see that they've never been signed. Or do they think you've faked the minutes?

There's not much you can do except fight your corner and use those meeting notes to your advantage.

PeachesandPie · 19/02/2019 13:29

It doesn't sound good, I'm sorry that you are in this position. Hard lesson to learn to get everything in writing.

They might offer you a settlement agreement to go without fuss if it comes down to your word against another's. If they do, take it. You want to avoid a dismissal, if it looks like it will come to that then you need to resign first.

Karigan195 · 19/02/2019 13:32

Go see the manager and take a discreet recording device. Ask and record it.

Original poster
Cloudydaynow · 19/02/2019 13:33

WH1SPERS I have been applying for a few weeks because I realised this person wants me out and I wouldn't be able to work with them long term. Had an interview but unfortunately just missed out on the job. Still applying for sure.

TheInvestigator as I'm the one who writes the minutes and my managers letter is such an absolute denial, I should think it'll be put that I wrote whatever I wanted. I did point out that I was following what was done previously, but I think I'm going to be the scapegoat unfortunately.

OP posts:
babysharkah · 19/02/2019 13:34

Can you expand at all on what happened? It's really difficult to advise otherwise.

Original poster
Cloudydaynow · 19/02/2019 13:36

PeachesandPie if they think they are right would they even offer that? I would take it, I can't work with these people now, it's too big a thing to move past.

Karigan195 she isn't about much so I'd have to wait for her to come in, I'm not sure if she would be honest about it now though. If I were in her position I'm sure I certainly wouldn't say anything at all that could make it clear I lied.

OP posts:
mummmy2017 · 19/02/2019 13:37

Find proof that it has always been done this way.
Then you can explain the manager has at no point ever requested it was done differently

Original poster
Cloudydaynow · 19/02/2019 13:38

babysharkah it was a financial decision, I don't think I should say specifically, sorry if that's not expanded enough.

OP posts:
Jaxhog · 19/02/2019 13:40

Make your case, produce your minutes and tell the truth. If your Manager was issued the minutes and didn't make any changes, that should almost be as good as if she signed them.

Can you talk to ACAS?

If the worst come to the worst, negotiate the best settlement you can and get out with a resignation and a non-disclosure letter. It won't have a major impact on your future job prospects (I know this from experience).

StormTreader · 19/02/2019 13:40

Do you have any emails etc? instant messenger logs? Anything at all?

Anything along the lines of "oh, and I've done that thing" or "I'll get to your request as soon as I've done this thing" will carry a lot of weight since she should have queried it then if it wasn't agreed.

katmarie · 19/02/2019 13:48

Were you and she the only people in this minuted meeting? Have you at any point emailed the minutes to her/anyone else from the meeting to be agreed, or for their record? If so, you could argue that as they weren't challenged, they should be considered accurate.

Otherwise it sounds like your word against hers, which is very difficult. Have any other employees done this thing with managers endorsement? Is there any reference in company processes to what it is you've done? Do you have any emails to/from your manager relating to the task, or its completion?

Have you gone against company policy? That's the main thing, really. If you have, and your manager is not prepared to be honest, then you need to find some way to prove you did it with the endorsement of someone senior to you. Although even then they could well say that you should have gone over their head to flag that you were being asked to breach policy. Either way it's a nightmare to resolve. I'm sorry that's not much help!

Karigan195 · 19/02/2019 13:48

People do trying to justify their actions. If she does not know she is being recorded she might. If she does not you don’t have to let anyone else even know you tried it.

So why not give it a go?

picklemepopcorn · 19/02/2019 13:49

If it was minuted, and the minutes circulated and no alterations requested, then that is a strong element in your favour.

Minutes are a joint responsibility- the minute taker and then everyone else who could challenge inaccuracies.

runoutofnamechanges · 19/02/2019 13:59

Are the minutes an electronic file? It might help if you can show that they were created at the time and haven't been altered since. It should also show who created the file, assuming it wasn't you.

runoutofnamechanges · 19/02/2019 14:01

Cross-posted. Ok, so you wrote the minutes. Can you prove from the file date that they were created on the correct date and not altered since? Can you prove that the minutes were sent to the manager, an email or something?

Namechangeforthiscancershit · 19/02/2019 14:05

Were the minutes circulated by email? That would have been everyone else’s chance to say they weren’t right, and would also show that they hadn’t been altered after the event

AllTheUserNamesAreTaken · 19/02/2019 15:19

Did you type the minutes at or around the time of the meeting? If so, have you amended them since? If not, they may be able to see from an audit trail (or simply how they are saved on the computer system) that you have not changed them. Adds credibility to your account as that is what was said at the time

Loopytiles · 19/02/2019 15:23

Yes, did you circulate the minutes?

What were the protocols at the time for financial decisions of that sort?

Bluntness100 · 19/02/2019 15:25

Who was at the meeting that was minuted? That's seldom two people, and minutes are distributed afterwards to the attendees, so there should be email evidence of the minutes being sent and if she disagreed that would be the time.

Original poster
Cloudydaynow · 19/02/2019 15:33

Thank you for the replies. To answer a few questions
she and I were the only ones in the meeting.
The minutes would only ever have been circulated to the people involved which at the time would only have been the two of us.
They are typed over each time and printed so only paper copies (bad practice in this day and age I agree, but again naively I was following what had been done previously).
Her opinion of the minutes wasn't given at the interview but I would assume that to back up the letter she wrote she would have denied seeing them.
There is no clear policy on what was done that she or myself were or are aware of, only what has been done previously which is the same. But it is this which has been called into question, and i agree it should be but that it should be amended for future and me not made the scapegoat or an example of because I'm the one here when it's come to light.

I think the only thing which might at all be favourable for me is that the person who has issue with me, raised it with me informally then told me not to worry, "we'll leave it between us" which at the time I said I wasn't happy about as that made it sound dodgy and it really as far as I was aware, wasn't. The HR person clearly wasn't aware of that fact and I told him it had caused me a lot of stress.

OP posts:
Bluntness100 · 19/02/2019 15:44

Ok but odd and overly onerous to do minutes that are printed and given and not emailed. But hey ho. If whatever it is has always been done like this then surely there is evidence of that?

Lumene · 19/02/2019 15:54

Do ring ACAS. They can advise you confidentially and you can give them more detail than you can on here.

CheekyFuckersDontGetPastMe · 19/02/2019 16:03

Even if the word documented was printed it will still show the date it was last modified. This should show that the minutes were done on the day and not changed.

Do you have anything email wise to show you carried out the task under the managers agreement. Even a one liner “Done”

Horrible situation for you. I have my fingers crossed you find a new role very soon.

Namechangeforthiscancershit · 19/02/2019 16:10

Even if the word documented was printed it will still show the date it was last modified. This should show that the minutes were done on the day and not changed

I think it’s just one document that gets changed every time there’s a meeting...

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