Tribunal handhold

[Sadatchristmastime]

Is anyone else going through this? Received final grievance outcome yesterday after months of silence - happy Christmas! As expected was not good. My marriage, family and health have all suffered. I could withdraw it but things are toxic and don't think that would resolve anything. Are things always this bad before tribunal has even started? Not feeling very strong today, been crying all night and had very low thoughts. Rowed with DH. And off to see the big man today. Am feeling like I can't cope with anything anymore but also feeling I can't just walk away. Any advice gratefully received.

My husband went through it but luckily wasn't still at the company as they terminated his employment when he wouldn't sign a new contract but it was a very tough year even though he had a strong case.

I still worked at the company and had information that would help him but obviously jeopardise my career so we had to have an agreement that he wouldn't ask for it. It was really hard and I remember him being really close to the tribunal date and sitting on the sofa crying when his solicitor rang saying they were offering him his job back (he didn't take it). My husband is a confident knowledgeable person but it absolutely knocked his confidence and he was quite bitter for a number of years, so much so, it took quite a big argument where I basically told him he had to let it go and move on for his own mental health.

Strong case or not, don't under estimate how much a tribunal can effect you and how long it takes to shake it off even if you're successful. Good luck

Sadatchristmastime thanks re clarifying the EC situation. The fact is grievances and ultimately Tribunal do take their toll. Employers will go through their process and it extends the timelines for many months.

They will not care that the individual has to settle their own fees, nor that they are putting them though the mincer emotionally. That's why it's important to be clear in your own mind (guided by your solicitor's advice) what your Claim is and where your employer has failed.

I think the other problem is that, since they got rid of fees last summer, the tribunal system just isn't coping. There has been something like a 300% increase in claims and they've had to recruit new judges to start next year but this has led to massive delays. Most cases settle before reaching the actual hearing but they all have to be listed first. Some cases that have been brought this year are being listed to be heard in 2020 if they are long cases (more than 5 days). It does depend on where you are in the country but delays can be significant. It depends how much of your life you are willing to devote to it.

I had no choice but to bring my first claim or I would have lost my job. But I would have thought much harder about it if I had known I would still be waiting now for the final remedy hearing. Years on. Mine was delayed by the appeal but everything was listed before the tribunal fees impact kicked in so they delay would have been even longer now.

The other problem with this is that my outcomes, despite being mainly successful, have not really felt like justice. The judgments have got details wrong, sometimes the others side's witnesses lied but it couldn't be proved, and they're there to make legal decisions, not give a moral verdict. It's felt good to get confirmation that my boss behaved badly but I'm not sure that the 3 days of cross-examination that I have gone through was something I appreciated the impact of before I brought the case.

Only you can know what is right for you but you need to be prepared for what it will take.

For me, there was initially no option and then it became principle. So I don't regret doing it, on balance, but I regret (and am still very angry about) the fact that my boss made it necessary for me to have to do so.

I went through it many moons ago. It was horrrndous (and I’m a strong person). The whole thing went on for 14 months and I settled in the end before we got to the tribunal.
Saying that, I think I would have been more broken if I had given up and dropped it and just tried to move on. By the end of it all, the bullying shit who tried to squash me ended up so damaged that he effectively ruined his own career, and having negotiated full access to my files as part of the settlement agreement, the satisfaction of seeing them squirm as the extent of their attempts to cover things up was awesome, as was reading statements from colleagues that backed up my claims and showed me it was not all in my head. The money I won was a bonus. Standing up to it was the best thing I did, but it really did nearly destroy me in the process.
For the people involved on the other side, what they do is not personal; attacking you is simply their ‘process’ whereas for you it is all-consuming and cuts to the heart of the person you are. It goes on and on and you need your DH or other friends to truly have your back so you get support each time a vicious missile of nasty bullshit gets sent by them over the fence to you.
It’s not easy to go through with it but also not easy to walk away. We can’t drcide for you, but lots of us do know how hard it is and can support you either way. It’s so not your fault to be where you are.

”I'm amazed that almost everyone on here is advising you to walk away. From what you've said, it sounds like you have a strong case”

A decision about whether to pursue it or not cannot and should not be made purely on the basis of the strength of the case. The OP sounds on her knees with it already and hasn’t even started yet. People advising her to walk away are people who are well aware that to pursue it will involve months and months of increased stress for her and her family.

I am in somewhat the same situation. My boss has created much stress that has effected my mental health and off work now. It is hard to keep your head around the situation and trying to get better. Sending positive thoughts your way

I don't really have any advice, but just wanted to let you know you are not the only one in the situation.

I'm in the midst of it - grievance was turned down, and I submitted IT papers. I also put in a subject access request, which I would urge anyone in this type of situation to do. They are supposed to provide the information in 20 working days, but mine took over 5 months and my employer still didn't provide all of it, and withheld other stuff. What I did discover was that the day after I made a report of wrongdoing about a colleague, my line manager initiated the first of 2 covert investigations into me.

It's really tough, especially when it seems everyone is telling you that no, you are imagining it, or that the behaviour was entirely reasonable. Legal appear to be especially vicious, but I suppose it is their job to defend to the hilt, and it's not personal, even though it feels like it.

I've been off sick since I found out about the covert investigations - I've been having panic attacks and sleeplessness. Awful emotional eating, and it's so difficult to switch off the replay of events swirling around my head. GP has given me beta blockers & diazepam.

What helped me is that I went to the oversight body for my workplace and discussed the issue. They were supportive. They viewed the investigation in response to the whistleblowing as corruption and have said if it isn't adequately investigated they will call themselves in. I also found that preparing a visual timeline which analysed all of the records, e-mails etc was useful, not only to show others, but also in an attempt to remove the information from my head and onto paper.

I wish I could be more helpful - try to focus on Christmas as a distraction. Have you looked into any meditation type things to help with the anxiety? I keep meaning to, but haven't yet.

Thank you for all the replies. I can see both sides. I feel am damned if I do, damned if I don't. If I don't go to a tribunal, I feel this will have all been for nothing. The bullying has been horrendous and can only be in relation to me bringing a grievance. We are talking about a significant difference money wise but it's the treatment that has been so hard. Why not just be friendly and say we disagree because xxx but instead has been personal and vindictive.

Am going to try my hardest to throw myself into Christmas for the sake of my children who have seen me sad too many times (have tried to hide it but couldnt always.) And the pick up in new year.

I really appreciate the advice and wishes. It's a horrible lonely place to be.

And am so sorry for the others going through it too. Maybe we can PM to support each other xx

I suppose that's why I did it - I'd already complained (for a valid reason, later upheld by the tribunal) and the response showed me that there was no going back because I had dared to complain.

I'm amazed that almost everyone on here is advising you to walk away.

^Me too. You have come too far to walk away now OP.

”You have come too far to walk away now OP.”

She’s not come very far at all. If she goes through with a tribunal she has months and months of stress ahead of her.

I agree, flowery . So many of these employment issues can become "sunk-cost fallacy" - the employee may believe that because they've gone out on a limb and taken their employment grievance thus far, that their only option is to carry on to the bitter end.

The outcome may take a year out of that person's life and career in stress, a feeling that justice was never fully achieved and being considerably lighter of pocket. Not always that bad, but it's a big risk and the price paid is high.

Thanks all. Not trying to drip feed. Truth is this has gone on for eight months now. If I walk away am at a loss financially. Proceeding will hopefully not incur more financial cost (insurance covered). Unless lose my job/can't find a new one.

Am I unrealistic in thinking I can get a new job then carry on tribunal? I can't see how it can't be more stressful than has been....I actually feel much stronger than I did a few months ago (even though I have days/longer periods am really really low as per OP).

Its the injustice of it all - have been treated horrendously for purely sticking up for myself.

Ps happy Boxing Day all 😊

Just reread OP. I posted on a very very down day. Am having swings where very down and others feel stronger. A few months ago was very down all the time.

Hope makes sense, not wanting to mislead.

Hi OP, if you can pull out the stops and secure a new job, it will be a boost to your confidence.

If as you mentioned your insurance is covering you, then there seems no reason why you can't continue in parallel. Being in new employment means you are moving forward in your life.

The question is have your insurance company confirmed they will definitely cover your costs? If so, it indicates you must have a reasonable enough case because insurance invariably run a pre-assessment of the facts of the claim and only agree to represent if it has >51% chance of success.

I am now six months into mine.
I was sacked without notice in the summer.
ACAS EC was signed off early after the employer lied to ACAS
Tribunal process started
Telephone hearing was in the autumn.
Tribunal is set for next autumn.

The other side are lying but I have the email records.
The timescale is all controlled by the court
My solicitor charges me in blocks of 6 minutes (as I cannot afford to pay for much)
I am just following the process / system as best I can

I assume they will try to settle at some stage but my case is about principle not money.

Once the court process starts it almost gets easier as delays are not permitted.
And the judge I had on the phone saw through all their crap, spotting things I did not even raise.

Try not to beat yourself up
But be willing to walk away if it comes to it.

Hi yes they have - they confirmed 70% but have told me they think is more like 80. I guess this is now reading like I have made up my mind to do this but this is because is a "strong day". On a weak day, I struggle so bad.

My health has really suffered (have been close to suicidal thoughts) but I don't see if I walk away that will change. If I go back and withdraw, it will definitely continue so don't think an option at all.

My employers are making me feel like I shouldn't have stood up for myself and now I have, have come down like a ton of bricks and then some. I've had lies and dirt slung at me. I know is not true and most cannot stick. But this the whole porc as has been horrendous.

I really appreciate all the advice from all sides of the fence here.

Thanks so much everyone.

It can feel frightening but believe in yourself and the facts - even if they try to distort the situation and make you feel bad. You have every right to expect your employer to act legally and if they haven't, then calling them on their bad behaviour is a brave and positive thing to do. I wish you every good fortune.

That said, remember your health is paramount, so don't sacrifice it long term, you need your strength for you and your loved ones.

Onwards and upwards in 2019!

Thank you Daisy

Daisy that's a really good post - believe in yourself and the facts.

I know I struggle a bit mentally when the 'other side' try to distort things and lie, and I start to worry that maybe they have a point after all. But rationally I know they don't. I know I am hard working, conscientious and respected in my field, and I have done nothing wrong. I also know that I have a right to expect that my employer will behave reasonably and with integrity towards me, and my manager didn't - in fact he started a vendetta against me which he is still pursuing.

I did snigger a bit when my former manager put in his ET response that I had been repeatedly disrespectful to him, one of which was that I failed to attend his leaving lunch. WTF? In fact I was at a meeting with clients that he should have been at, busy trying to salvage the business relationship which he had jeopardised. He also said I had refused to attend a meeting with him. Yep, a meeting which he had rearranged for my day off when I was out of the country. He really is scraping the barrel.

I hope everyone else enjoyed their Christmas. I hardly thought about it yesterday when family was round, but I'm back to full scale anxiety again today. I'm signed off until mid-Jan, and already I am panicking at the prospect of having to return to work. My biggest fear is bursting into tears at work again. I'm quite senior, so I can't spend my days being a blubbery mess.

This is endemic in organizations at the moment - HR and Mgt rarely know their own processes and the law even less. The key is making sure you have a clear evidence trail and don't let them get away with anything. A friend of mine is on her third tribunal and all fully justified - two won out of hand even though went to actual tribunal and no settlements. Currently midst her third mostly because it is such a tight knot community in her industry and there has been gossip and so its all heresy that has lead to the situation and now she also has a slander case in hand which she has been told 90% chance with with is highly unusual, I think there are two many flipping narcissists getting into positions of power thinking they can do as they please to people as well as with financial process and when challenged then bully, harass and victimise individuals. All of them have been seen through on point of principle.

Beryl even before I had reached the end of your second para, I was saying to myself the words "scraping the bottom of the barrel", so you're definitely onto something there.

A Tribunal won't care less about your former boss's opinion of what constitutes "respect" - they see through all the game-playing and barrel-scraping and focus on the cold facts, with evidence placed before them. So if the best your employer can do is that, then I think you can feel quietly confident. Push it as far as you can, and see if they are the first to blink.

Very often, an organisation will take it to a few days before Tribunal is due to sit, then decide to go for a Commercial Settlement i.e. a SA as a damage limitation exercise to avoid Tribunal. It may only cover the legal fees you've expended and a bit left over, but the inner satisfaction knowing they were too chicken to come under scrutiny is worth £1M. Seen that happen a lot!

Keeping my fingers crossed for you all for a good outcome in 2019.