Why won't new employee sign his mileage claim?

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The usual process is that forms are completed online, printed, signed and handed to the office admin with a petrol receipt.

Yes, it's a bit antiquated but it works. New employee is kicking up an almighty fuss about how he should be able to submit it with his name typed, rather than an actual signature. He's still printing the form and handing it in, so it's not about inefficiency, he just keeps saying he doesn't see why it needs a signature.

I can't get to the bottom of why it matters so much to him that he'd make this much fuss, over something so minor, in his first few weeks in a new job.

What am I missing?

I once worked with a guy who refused to sign his contract. It went on for weeks with HR trying to reason with him. In the end there was a big meeting and they sat him down and said he couldn’t work there without a contract, so he either had to sign one or leave. He reluctantly signed, but we were all bewildered and slightly amused by the whole thing. Some people are just really odd.

I've never understood the petrol receipt thing either. You fill your car up, then you discover you need to do a business trip, and they won't pay your mileage because you didn't fill up with petrol? I don't get it.

Glad I don't do much in the way of expenses claiming. It all seems to be about getting employees to foot the bill for as much as possible for as long as possible.

To get back on topic, not wanting to sign is weird.

You fill your car up, then you discover you need to do a business trip, and they won't pay your mileage because you didn't fill up with petrol? I don't get it.

I've never come across a business that works like that. You have to provide a receipt but it doesn't have to be fuel you purchased during the business trip. Ideally it should be from immediately before or after the trip but even that isn't necessary.

It is to do with the fact the business can reclaim VAT for the fuel portion of the mileage but need to show VAT receipts to HMRC on request.

Let us imagine you do a trip of 100 miles and get £45 from your employer as a result (45p per mile). HMRC take the view that £15 of that is to cover fuel so your employer can reclaim £2.50 VAT, but in order to do so they need a receipt from you showing that you have purchased at least £15 fuel. If you don't give them a receipt they can't reclaim the VAT.

Some businesses take the view that the hassle involved is more than the VAT refund is worth so don't bother with receipts. But if they want to reclaim the VAT they need those receipts.

”For everyone who's convinced we can dismiss because he doesn't have two years, he's a teacher, so we can't. They have continuous service under the national teacher pay and conditions regardless of how often they change employer (in the public sector).”

Sorry OP, but this is categorially not the case. You are confusing continuous service for the purposes of accrual of occupational benefits with continuous service for the purposes of accrual of statutory employment rights.

I’m not normally one to shout about my credentials but it seems to be particularly relevant, so as well as being an HR consultant I have just finished a five year spell as a director of a multi-academy trust. I am extremely familiar with all the ins and outs of the Burgundy Book and STPCD (more so than any teacher I’ve ever met) and have drafted teachers’ terms and conditions in discussion with the teaching unions.

If a teacher moves schools (or whatever setting you are) within the same local authority, they maintain continuous service for both statutory employment rights and service-related benefits as it’s the same employer. If a teacher moves due to a TUPE transfer, the same will apply.

If they move to a different local authority, or to an academy, that will not be continuous service for the accrual of statutory employment rights including protection against unfair dismissal.

If it’s a maintained setting, just in a different LA, their accrual of service for things like sick pay, maternity pay etc will be continuous.

If it’s an academy which recognises the Burgundy Book terms, it will be up to the academy whether they recognise previous service for these purposes. Some do, some don't, they are not obliged to. Or an academy might not operate Burgundy Book terms at all.

But for the accrual of employment rights, it needs to be the same employer or a TUPE. It’s simply not the case that once someone has qualified as a teacher, they are fully protected even if they hop about from employer to employer.

MrDonut - whether a contract is signed or not, is a red herring. If someone is working and they have been made aware of the terms of the contract, it's accepted they have agreed, even if not signed. They are accepting the conditions by accepting the benefits they get within the contract.

it seems the forms he's completed so far include mileage from home, rather than from the usual place of work

He can claim mileage legitimately, from home to a client or a work meeting at a different site or going somewhere that isn't his normal place of work.

He can't claim any mileage for his commute - that's non deductible under HMRC regs.

If he's a teacher he can't he an industry sou so my theory died. Boo.

A Fraud?

It is odd though. I mean, the type of person who is comfortable committing fraud in the first place wouldn’t normally baulk at signing their name at the bottom of the fraudulent claim.

Do you work in Payroll, OP?

Part of my job is assisting with contractor expenses before they’re processed by our Payroll team.

If a contractor was dicking about by refusing to sign the expenses form, Payroll would shrug their shoulders and say that’s fine, then payment won’t be processed without a complete form and that’s the end of it.

There were a few times management got involved, but the longest anyone held out was two months- they wanted the money more than the upper hand!

If you leave from home to go to a client, you are expected to deduct the miles of your normal commute. I live 25 miles from work, so frequently I can’t claim for client visits where I go home-client-home as they are often less than 25 miles from my base.

From my home even. So less miles than my normal commute therefore I can’t claim. I understood this to be the norm?

What @flowery said, with bells on. I once had a HT tell me, rather patronisingly, that teachers were exempt from employment law.

Anyway. No signy, no money.

It is stupid though, he's right about that. I haven't signed a expense claim since about 2002.

@Lougle I’m interested that you say there are 10 and 20 week reviews in the NHS. Is that both clinical and non-clinical? I’m not doubting you but I was involved in managing a person who really wasn’t capable and had very little insight so supporting/improving was nigh on impossible. I tried to get the department to let them go on the basis of less than 2 yrs service (they had started work in the NHS with us) but management said it didn’t apply to the NHS. It was a whole tedious convoluted process that they said we had to go down but thankfully the person left of their own accord before then.

It would not surprise me in the slightest if HR/management didn’t actually know what they were talking about.

I'm clinical, and had 10 and 20 week reviews both in my initial post and when I changed role in the same area. I can't answer for the whole of the NHS, though.

”I once had a HT tell me, rather patronisingly, that teachers were exempt from employment law.”

I’ve heard “oh but it’s different for teachers” many many times. Er, no. It really really isn’t.

HMRC only allow 45p per mile for the first 10,000 miles in the tax year. After that it needs to reduce to 25p per mile, otherwise he has to pay tax on the extra as additional income. Could this be the issue? Ie he’s already put in large mileage claims earlier in the year at his last employment.

HMRC only allow 45p per mile for the first 10,000 miles in the tax year. After that it needs to reduce to 25p per mile, otherwise he has to pay tax on the extra as additional income. Could this be the issue? Ie he’s already put in large mileage claims earlier in the year at his last employment.

Not sure how that would make any difference.
If he doesn't claim, he gets nothing at all.
If he does claim, he'll get something.
There's no advantage to not claiming any extra miles, only disadvantage.

But he is claiming, just refusing to sign the claim form.

Very normal asking for an expenses claim to be signed, you'd think with him being new, he'd just get on with the job and try and give a good impression, instead of kicking off.

Have you effectively identified him? Sounds almost exactly like a case of Synthetic identity fraud case my husband’s workplace had to deal with. Guy refused to sign anything, and later we found he wasn’t actually the guy they hired.

WTH?

@Cherries101 please do a thread full of details about this. I’m intrigued

Maybe get him to sign a team greetings card and see what name he puts?! Is he "worried" about identify theft of something or do you think he feels he has terrible handwriting?

I work as a Compliance director at a national accountancy firm, I would Simply recite the procedure, and await compliance with the procedure before processing the expense claim.

As long as it's the written policy/instruction that the claim needs to be signed, then simply don't pay him.

All you respond is “Dems the rules”

If he wants to change the rules then suggest he takes it up with someone more senior.

But those are the current arrangements. He needs to follow them and complain separately.

could you give him his own 'master' document, just for him to use, where you scan and print his signature already on it?. TBH it's very odd. I know a guy who wouldn't even disclose the names of his kids and wife to colleagues, even after 2 years. Maybe he's just secret service, or a wannabe-cop.