City lawyer with toddlers can't cope

[RosieIrene]

I work FT at a city firm and have two dd 1 and 3. Have a full time daily nanny but still can't cope. Work all day, come home and put kids to bed and work all evening to make billable target or have to go to client functions. So stressed out that on weekend just want to sit in garden with kids and do nothing. Can't sleep, can't talk to anyone. How do people manage?

Bundle - the way I see it is that one starts off being a full-time mother and gradually, bit by bit, a child gains its independence and it is the job of the mother to always be preparing a child for the next stage of independence up until they fly the nest and lead their own lives and make their own decisions.

When you spend all day every day with your child, it seems to be far easier, to my mind, to let your child move on to the stage just because you know him/her so well and what he/she is capable of and he/she is so secure in your ability to judge what he/she can do.

This is an issue I discuss at length with my partner, who has two sons from his first marriage who were cared for by a variety of people (full-time nanny while parents were out working but also very present grandparents). A major issue that we encounter with my stepsons is that no-one has properly followed their development and they haven't gained an appropriate level independence for their age (12 and 10) as they chop and change between caregivers, none of whom really know what they are capable of, have been doing etc.

Because the nhs dental system is sh*te, the private sector doesn't appeal. I hated my job, the children hated the fact that they barely saw me or dh (he is a city lawyer for an american firm so workslong hours). DH loves his job, i didn't. We moved to a new area, I resigned and am spending time with the children. When ds starts nursery next year I am looking to retrain in physiotherapy and accupuncture.

Mozhe why are you consistently so insulting and defensive of your role as a full-time working parent

good for you - glad you enjoy it - if you could possibly stop disparaging other's life choices for a short while you might find people starting to actually warm to you rather than seeing you as an insulting, narrow-minded PITA

Actually Anna888 I'm not sure about "knowing" when your children are ready to go on to the next level. We have an absolutely brilliant nanny (see threads passim). She has previously looked after children older than my children are now. She often say to us that in her experience DS is ready to do X or Y - if anything I think I tend to protect them a bit because although DS is 5.6, he is my baby and I have absolutely no idea of what 5 or 6 year old boys do.

There was a nice line in a Libby Purves book I read, which is that you can delegate caring for your child, but you can never delegate the responsibility of caring for your child. I agree with that.

Anchovy - you are completely agreeing with my point - where you are lucky is that you have a great nanny. Unfortunately they are not always as alert.

Not read the whole thread, but fwiw you are at the hardest part now. When DC were 3 and 1 I had a f/t job and they were at nursery, relationship with DH was rocky, we were renovating a house and living in a poky flat etc etc etc and I was at overload. When not in the office I rotated two pair of jeans and 5 identical white teeshirts and felt ugly, fat (living on ready meals) and a failure in all areas - always tired and anxious.
It did get easier, when DS2 started sleeping thru the night ( at 2.5!). I would have liked to give up job but becuase of DH rocky relationship situation did not dare.
It IS worth asking your company about p/t - the HAVE to take it seriously. work in a very 'macho' type culture - was the only salesperson who ever came back after maternity leave, and there were dinosaurs about. Eventually they reluctantly agreed to term-time working when DS1 went to school, and life became fantastic! So if you can stick with it you will find ways to make it work. (FWIW last week got an award for top salesperson beating al the men with wives at home ) - really enjoy my job, have quality time with kids, DH & I very happy, and boss admits that I got a new lease of life with p/t that has benefitted the company- so there IS light at the emd of the tunnel, but you are the darklest part now...
BTW you are entitled to take of 4 weeks per year unpaid parental leave - TAKE IT!!

Yes there is lots of VERY , VERY good advice here.
I totally agree with Harpsichords post of 11.49 am
I love my job and respect people who value their careers. But I also realise its value - very little.
When you are working, you are one of the team. The moment you leave, you are totally forgotten. It is a here and now work society.I worked for an accountancy firm and they couldn't wait to get rid of the old , historic Partner.
That totally opened my eyes. Do you value your job that high ? Remember you are totally dispensable, in a milli-second. Once your eyes are openedd to this, it changes your whole outlook.

So Anna, I take it you will stop being a full-time mother when your child commences school

1. "and it is the job of the mother to always be preparing a child for the next stage of independence up until they fly the nest and lead their own lives and make their own decisions. "

ummmm - surely that should be the job of the parent - both dh and I care for our girls, help to wipe bums, do homework, glue cardboard creations etc. I have two jobs. three if you count the voluntary, unpaid stuff I do for dd2's nursery.

2. "When you spend all day every day with your child, it seems to be far easier, to my mind, to let your child move on to the stage just because you know him/her so well and what he/she is capable of and he/she is so secure in your ability to judge what he/she can do. "

ummmm - bollocks.
I know my children bloody well and am confident that they can rely on me/their teachers/carers at nursery

3. "This is an issue I discuss at length with my partner, who has two sons from his first marriage who were cared for by a variety of people (full-time nanny while parents were out working but also very present grandparents). A major issue that we encounter with my stepsons is that no-one has properly followed their development and they haven't gained an appropriate level independence for their age (12 and 10) as they chop and change between caregivers, none of whom really know what they are capable of, have been doing etc. "

ummmm - might I respectfully suggest that the divorce actually affected your stepsons rather more than you think, rather than using some cod-psychology about caregivers changing. one of my nephews is currently seeing a psychologist because of the repercussions of his parents' split.

my children have been looked after by me, my dh and the staff at their nursery (from 7 mths to 4.5 years, in the same place, with roughly the same staff) and are not confused about themselves or the level of their abilities.

Marina - I have a one/two day a week job under discussion starting this Autumn, once my daughter is settled in school (mornings only the first year). I'll need to sort out some form of childcare for one afternoon a week, but I think that her grandmother wants to do this (it will involve taking her to ballet class and giving her tea).

And I'll see how it goes.

but by the definition you applied to people who WOTH before their children are school age, you won't be a full-time mother anymore.
This thread is supposed to be about helping RosieIrene so I'll say no more, bundle has said it all for me anyway.

I used to have a high flying career in Sales and Marketing managing around 60 people or so. I gave it up to become an academic at a local university when I had children. It allows me to use my brain, work with bright and sometimes driven people and best of all have a life which balances work and home life.

I do think back to the days when I had a career to speak of and all the perks that went with it ie expense account, holidays, home helps etc but if I work out the hourly rate I get now it far exceeds the rate I was on before.

I can go to sports days if I choose, pick the kids up from school and still have money.

God I am so bored by this sahm vs working mother sniping - it's so effing pointless and destructive.

OP - my friend (male) was a city lawyer and decided to give up on the goal of becoming a partner and move to an in-house position nearer home - mainly because he was single and wanted to have a family at some point and was concerned the long hours were interfering with the chances of that happenning. Judging by his holidays, cars, house etc he still makes damn good money (think he is head of department there now) and is much happier. Is this not something you could consider if part-time in the City is not a viable option. Surely if your DH is a partner you have plenty of money coming in - does your salary really need to be as high? Money isn't everything. Look at that guy that attacked and killed his 2 year old recently as a result of stress - he was earning 1/2 a million a year but I am sure that will be no consolation to him or the poor family. Having plenty of money is great sure, but surely having a bit less but a better quality of life could be better for you? I know it is tough to give up the dreams/competition/fight etc - especially after all that education, training but if it is not making you happy, what is the point.

Personally I have taken the compromise option - I work 4 days a week in the City, one day from home, ok career prospects have nose-dived but good money is still coming in, ds only needs to go to nursery 2 days a week which he loves, granny one day, 2 days at home with me. It is still hard sometimes but I feel the balance is about right for me - he is not suffering, I spend plenty of time with him and get a break. I bf for a year but was able to take 10 months mat leave (6 months paid). The expressing has to stop at least surely - it is physically exhausting. One thing that helped me massively is sending the ironing out - and surely you can afford a cleaner or housekeeper? Good luck.

Is Xenia a lawyer then? I thought she ran her own business?

Bundle - calm down. Why on earth are you getting so worked up? Throwing cheap pot shots about things you can know nothing about does nothing to make your arguments more credible.

Agree with Kookaburra about this being really the hardest time.

Agree with Bundle re it being really important to have equal DH input.

Isn't it funny that no-one suggests that fathers who WOTH are part-time fathers, but you can guarantee on a thread like this someone will propose that mothers who WOTH are part-time mothers!

Those of you who had mothers that SAH and fathers that WOTH, do you honestly feel that you love your fathers less or that they paid a lesser role in your upbringing than your mother?

In my case my mother provided the day to day care, but my father gave me just about everything that made my life distinctive! My love of music, of knowledge, of social justice, of politics etc etc all came from my father. As did the belief that I was capable of anything I put my mind to! Mum OTOH thought that finding a husband was a priority!

RI - I am not a lawyer but a partner in an accountancy firm. I dealt with children by moving to a 'desk' job which as it is pretty niche, has been extremely lucritive and is very, very intellectually challenging. I have enormous control over the hours I work and I am very valued as a fellow partner.

Nevertheless, I could have done none of this without my DH taking on 50% of the domestic burden (he too has a senior City job) and without an army of supporters! A good nanny/housekeeper, a cleaner, an ironing lady and a gardener all help keep us on the straight and narrow This means that if we wish to, every evening and weekend is spent in the garden - and why the hell not!

If I were in your position, faced with a long commute, I would add a chauffeur to that list to. You would be able to work in the car, freeing up more time to spend with your children

I also work from home on a Friday, doing the school runs etc which helps me to stay in touch with the mums from school - who are another important part of the support network. They keep me in touch with what is going on, when I need to provide cakes etc!

I think it very much depends what you see your longer term plans as being. If you want to go for partnership, then I would throw lots of money at providing the support you need to get yourself through the next couple of years. If not, then I'd go part-time or look for a 'desk' job which keeps your hand in over the next few years until you are ready for more

The important thing is to believe that you are in control of your career. Your stress in the OP is obvious and regaining control will help to allieviate that, I think. Also don't forget to take the breaks when they arise. Even corporate lawyers have days when they are not busy - take them off, stay at home and recharge the batteries

Marina - that's totally consistent with what I said earlier. Children gradually gain their independence. As they do so, they make room in their mother's life for other activities. It's a continuum and gradually (very gradually) you stop being a full-time mother. That's just how it is.

I am hoping RosieIrene will come back to see us and fill us in on how her dh can help her with all of this Soapbox, I agree wholeheartedly with you and bundy that a supportive partner is vital.

All hail Soapbox! (She, Mrs Wobble and Issymum have been my working mother gurus!)

PS one of the lawyers I referred to in my original thread was a dad, whose dp was struggling with PND. He kissed EC2 goodbye, got a 4 days a week job in the provinces and they are much the happier for it

rosieirene - i think, depending on your situation and motivations then all the advice here is good.

i can provide an extreme perspective: after my 3rd child i sold my small business and went to work ft in banking. i was v good at it and loved it. i was a top performer and was progressing through exams. i had no time to relax and began to dream of work. also i had a nasty legal problem with the man who had bought my business not paying anything.one day i beagan to have trouble walking from my car into the building. then i started crying as i walked into work and seemed to lose the ability to move one leg in front of the other. i went to the dr. who signed me off work with stress and i never went back. i felt terribly ashamed and have had to change my life and am much poorer.

the reason i'm telling you all this is as a warning - if you're finding it hard to cope, don't just try and carry on. do something, whether it's a minor change or drastic. don't push yourself til you crack, as i did.

Too - not to!

I have now decided that Anna888 is the flip side of Mozhe

could the two of you just chat amongst yourselves and reach some kind of conclusion where you don't end up insulting half the population of mumsnet (each taking your own half of course) by your thoughtlessly insulting comments .. yeah, that might just work

hear hear twig

Fabulous post Soapbox. I totally agree, except about the chauffeur bit as working in the car makes me sick. A first class train ticket would be preferable.

RI: If you continue with your job you will need to throw just about every £ you earn at making your life sustainable, in the knowledge that it will get easier as the children get older. You need to be absolutely ruthless about delegating anything it is not necessary for you personally to do unless you happen to enjoy doing it. If washing the floor or making stock satisfies some part of your soul, do it; otherwise pay somebody else to do it. You also need to be ruthless about sleep - yours and the children. I like to think that we are very loving, amenable and liberal parents to our DDs (5 and 6.5) but we have been tyrannical about sleep as it is so key to our survival. We may pay later in the form of years of psychotherapy, but it will be worth it. I can't comment directly on breast-feeding (my children were adopted) but you may want to review it on the MrsWobble 'bang for your buck' principle i.e. if your time and energy are limited is this particular use of them delivering the maximum benefit for you and your children. You will also need the unambiguous, unqualified and fully-informed support of your DH. He doesn't have to drop everything every day to be home in time to relieve the nanny, but he does need to be proud and supportive of your career, to recognise the dilemma it will consistently pose for you and, just every now and then, put your work first, tell his assistant to stay late and go home and take over.

Your three priorities will be your children, your work and your marriage and for a few years, everything else will have to go hang. You will not be able to do even just those three brilliantly, but just doing them and surviving is masterful in itself.