Who decides what reasonable adaptations are?

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And do you think these are reasonable?

Providing IT equipment, special desk and chair, and total cost £4000

Excusing employee from one task, which is usually about 20% of the workload for that role. It's a unpopular task and other team members would have to pick up the difference

3 x physio sessions pw in work time.

I'm asking because I'm part of the team and there has been some unrest. I'm fully supportive of the employer doing what they can to accomodate the disability and am very much "there but for the grace of God", but am genuinely unsure how much impact that should be allowed to have on the other staff. I'm sure employer will take advice, this is more for informal opinions.

FWIW colleague has recently joined and didn't disclose these issues (why should she?). It's not a new or worsening disability during the employment iyswim

@swingofthings

I'm not sure you are really understanding.

Most people experience episodes in their lives that are difficult - bereavement, illness of children or maybe aged parents, domestic crises etc. These can be managed by existing protocols - maybe emergency leave, carers leave, unpaid leave, sick leave if necessary. I've had to do this.

Reasonable adjustments cover conditions that will exist in the long term, even permanently. A blind person might need adjustments, maybe specialist software, another person might need a ramp installed or an adapted chair. These issues aren't going away in a few weeks. Without these adjustments many people simply would not be able to work.

You say your friend doesn't want to take sick leave and why should she? Then she could use her annual leave. I have to use all of my annual leave to cover my hospital appointments, but why should I?

but I never saw her as a disabled person which she liked I treated her like the others in the team.

That is how I want to be treated. I hate drawing attention to what I can't do. I only want people to see what I can do. BUT if my manager decided to do some team building exercise that involved climbing up a mountain where does that leave me? Should they expect me to walk up it so that they are treating me like everyone else in the team or actually does that exclude me?

I don't want to have the metaphorical pat on the head but I am not able to do the same as everyone else.

Most people I know go to work, take care of their homes and family, have hobbies, socialise, go shopping. My life doesn't look like that. I go to work - that is my priority. Then I do my physio to try and keep me well enough to go to work. I do one housework task a day. If I want to socialise I have to plan it for when I have a few days off work because it causes so much pain and tiredness that I can't function at work.

This is the background that I have to work from. My starting point isn't as a fit and able bodied person who then has to worry about family problems. Anything over and above my illness is virtually impossible for me to deal with.

This isn't a sob story. I am incredibly fortunate when compared with others. Your friend is in a very very difficult place right now but it will improve. Until it does, there are mechanisms in place.

A month or so ago I suffered a sudden bereavement in the family. I received a phone call at work and had to ask to be allowed to leave - literally to arrange undertakers to the house etc. I had to ask for this extra favour on top of already booking leave at short notice and shift swapping for hospital appointments.

Long term illness or disability adds another layer of difficulty to life. Reasonable adjustments are meant to try and level the playing field a bit. They aren't perks.

it's not a competition, what is reasonable for one person should be for another depending on their actual need, not whether their condition fall under a certain definition or not.

Just to add. There aren't actual conditions that automatically confer a disability - apart from cancer and I think MS. Other than these, any physical or mental condition that has lasted for 3 months and will last for at least another 3 months may be covered under the Equalities Act. Again no stipulations for adjustments are made. They are dependent on the needs of the individual and what is reasonable for one person may not be reasonable for another, even if they have the same condition.

We consider reasonable adjustments as something that enables a person with disabilities to do the job - it’s not about paying anyone not to work.
They need a proper occupational health assessment and HR involvement.

We would provide specialist equipment and software as a one off payment.
20% is a lot of the work to avoid - unless they’ve taken on some other responsibilities to make up for it. So, someone who is visually impaired might have read/write software and obviously couldn’t drive so we’d fund taxis and public transport instead of mileage. As they couldn’t assess written records we’d expect them to maybe review other data using their laptop and software. If someone in a shop couldn’t stand on a till for long you’d either get them a chair or ensure they moved around to other tasks at reasonable periods. You wouldn’t just accept them not being at the till.
Thrice weekly physio would be fine if it was a time limited course - four six weeks say. After that they’d be some negotiating to be done.

your friend won't always have these problems. The housing, bullying etc can be resolved. A disability will never go away and the need for adjustments will always be there. As a pp said, a disabled person can have the exact same problems as your friend but with their disability to manage as well. Your friend will still find it easier to get a job should she ever go for another one.

Saying it's not a competition is disgusting and shows complete ignorance of the meaning of equality.

I forgot, my disability aside my life is all sunshine and flowers and fucking wonderful. I don’t have problems at home, get bullied or have Ill relatives. I’m immune to it all because I have a disability so of course I shouldn’t expect equality in the workplace

I really, really hope you don’t work in hr swing. There are various different entitlements etc including the right to ask for flexible working, carers leave that are open to people in particular situations. Can you honestly not understand why disabled people need to have protection in law?

To hark back to pregnant women - why should they get 9 months off and I don’t? If it’s one rule for one it should be one rule for all (I’m not being serious).

This thread is depressing.

Hats off to posters who have patiently explained why discrimination is a bad thing.

Tripping the velvet could I pm you please?

Wombles and brown (and others), you are infinetly more patient and better at being reasonable than me.

When I get up in the morning one of the things I think is, there is no way out of this. If I’m lucky, I have another 30,40,50 years of pain and exhaustion and things can only get worse. There’s nothing I can do resolve the pain I’m in. It’s wearing, it’s draining and that’s with the best pain control they can come up with which keeps me lucid enough to work.

I’m sorry to hear that Buggerbrexit.

One thing that is perhaps not being understand by some posters is that this really isn’t just about making life easier or getting time off to deal with stress or problems.

Let’s take the example of a task nobody likes doing. I have two infrequent tasks I don’t do. For someone else it might be a mild inconvenience to do them. For me it will make me ill. For weeks. And stop me being able to do all the other things I do well.

I don’t get extra time off to cope with problems. I get flexi time off for appointments that I have to make up.

I’m not saying people without disabilities can’t have problems or difficulties or need time off work. That is not the point. The example of maternity leave is a great one - do you think it’s unfair when pregnant women get time off work to have their babies?

That said... those of us who need adjustments DO have a difficult time as by definition we have one or more ongoing health issues. You are welcome to my adjustments and the reasons for them. Your mistake is to think that me + adjustments = you + adjustments.

In any case as I say it is the managers who are handling this badly. It is not ok that you have been told all this info and that you are on an Internet forum posting nasty things. I doubt it’s another condition every single day. And if it feels like that to you imagine being the person who has them.

Very well put.

Hi Super. Yes PM if you like but I might not be able to be very specific

Someone disabled might stop being so with the right medical intervention or drug

If they are cured, then they would no longer be disabled and would no longer be eligible for reasonable adjustments.

Actually, what’s more likely to be the case is that medical intervention or medication allows them to manage their condition so that someone to whom they chose not to disclose wouldn’t immediately realise they are disabled. But that doesn’t actually make them any less disabled or any less entitled to whatever RAs put, and keep, them on a level playing field at work.

To look at me, you would not know I had a disability. But you don’t see me taking the five different types of drugs I take across the day. You don’t see me collapse onto the bed the minute I’m through the door at the end of the day, or hear me wince as I use my TENS machine. You don’t see the painful exercises I do every morning to try to eke our maximum mobility. You don’t sit in on my consultant appointments where he tells me that I have permanent nerve damage. You don’t realise that the reason that 95% of the time I say “oh, just a quiet one” when you ask if I had a nice weekend is because I don’t have the physical resilience to go out and do nice things AND manage a week at work.

You just see the flexi time for appointment and the specialist chair and desk and think “it’s not fair”. Well no, it fucking isn’t, but not for the reasons you think.

And the point that people have been patiently trying to explain is that being disabled does not shield you from any of the other shit life throws up. We still have to deal with relationship breakups, sick kids, elderly parents, house moves, job losses...

It’s a bit like the points that are made on threads about white privilege. No one is saying that a non-disabled person can’t have a shitty life or that they don’t deserve support and empathy when that happens, including from their employer. But one thing that they won’t have to deal with during that shitty time is the extra challenges that having a disability causes.

This thread to me is showing how some people with disabilities show little sympathy for the difficulties that non disabled might experience and yes possibly for a long time too.

Then you aren’t reading people’s posts very carefully because that’s not what anyone said.

Someone disabled might stop being so with the right medical intervention or drug.

Yeah so nobody can find one in my case but hey hopefully I’ll die soon and then you won’t feel so inconvenienced any more.

Similarly, you might have someone who has no disability but whose misfortune in life is leaving them with many difficulties that could be long term.

THEY ARE NOT THE SAME TYPES OF DIFFICULTIES. I give up.

Swing - yes I want to be treated the same but realistically I am not the same. I can't do everything that an able bodied person can. Thanks to my medication I am at a very real risk of developing life threatening infections from what to others are minor illnesses. I am in severe, debilitating pain all the time. I have an implant in my back to help with the pain. My life isn't the same as yours.

Even if medication were to control my symptoms such that I appear able bodied I will still have the illness that causes that disability. I will suffer the side effects of that medication - the nausea, migraine headaches, low blood counts, liver problems, risk of infection. The damage to my joints will still be there with the physical limitations that damage causes will still be there even if to onlookers I don't "appear" disabled.

Yes, due to the wording used in the equality act some conditions might be cured and therefore some people won't always require RA for life. But I think that you are vastly over estimating what RA look like. I have to pay out a lot of money by virtue of my illness - I take at least 7 prescribed drugs per day. That costs me £10/month. I pay for some private physio £40/month. My train fare to the hospital is £10 per journey. I average two per month - 1 week I went three times. That's 10% of my income accounted for and doesn't include any gadgets I buy to help me around the house etc.

All of the above mean that my life is hard,even before I get to work. Believe me. Anyone is welcome to my adjustments - my special chair and footstool (when I finally get them) if they also take on all aspects of my illness. My RA are not enabling me to live the life of Riley.

I am immensely sympathetic to anyone struggling with problems. Those problems are not the same as living with a disability though. My problems as bad as they are to me, are nothing in comparison to the problems that someone in a wheelchair has, or a blind person, or an amputee or someone with a complete spinal cord injury. I can understand that everyone's needs are different so why can't you?

Why can't you see that someone with a mental health diagnosis might suffer discrimination if they declared that on an application form? Yes medication might make this invisible but if people know about it that person will be treated differently. This is why we need the Equalities Act. To try to level the playing field. To put us all on an equal footing. Then other everyday problems can be accommodated.

Treating everyone the same isn't treating everyone equally.

swing In the end, it really come down to the individual. Some will do everything in their power to stick to their work duties, disabled or not, whilst some will demand everything they are entitled to and more, disabled or not Agree in part with this. Everyone is an individual and some are workshy. Disabled people are like the rest of the population and yes some will be work shy. Managing them is an utter nightmare as they exploit every HR rule going.

However....this is a small % of people. Really small. The majority of disabled people would do anything to wake up and not have to wave the disability HR card It’s not a perk, it’s an embarrassment, a humiliation...being disabled can make waking up every day hard, going shopping hard, cooking a meal hard, finances hard, relationships hard, friendships hard. Managing life difficulties like domestic violence, bereavement, a cold, debt...all hard...indeed harder and still happen regardless. Being able to work is something they want for social inclusion, getting out of the disability benefit trap and self esteem. Being accepted, tolerated and welcomed in a workplace is a goal. Being made to feel like a burden for something you cannot help is shit but inevitable. Let’s do what we can to empathise and really help.

I think the thing I have failed to make clear is that reasonable adjustments aren’t about coping with problems and stresses but about differences in what you are physically able to do.

I don’t know why I’m still here though as some people don’t want their minds changed.

Someone disabled might stop being so with the right medical intervention or drug

Are you fucking kidding me?

You don’t seem to grasp that I (and others on this thread) have explained over and over that we understand people without disabilities face hard times too. So do we! Not all the difficulties in my life relate to my disabilities. I still have family with Ill health, my car still breaks down, and all the other shit.

How can you not grasp this?

I'm going to report that post by swing because it is blatant disablism to speak about medical interventions making someone less disabled. Can I get new eyes? Can I fuck! Can I get new ears? No I fucking can't.

Another person who needs to read up on the medical vs social models.

This is a poster giving dodgy medical advice like 'stop seeing so many different specialisms'

I'm really hoping they're not genuine in saying they manage people.

The social model is so crucial in understanding the impact of disability in the workplace.

I don't think I would take a drug that disappeared my autism if there was one. It's who I am. I can't imagine myself without it.
But the way workplaces are constructed around the needs of allistic people is a problem for me.

The lack of understanding by employers and schools of how a person may be under different specialists, how outpatient clinics work and the limitations is very difficult for patients in this situation.

In my role in hospital admin I've had some pretty daft questions from employers and schools, can't they have all their appointments on the same day? Can't they always have their appointment first thing in the morning? 🙄

Of course snuggly, because only one person Ever wants an early appointment 🤦🏻‍♀️

What annoys me most about people's perception of reasonable adjustments is when they think we are getting something for nothing. If I need time off for hospital appointments I take it as annual leave, swap my day off or take it unpaid. Everyone that I work with can do the same - if they have an emergency at home, their washing machine floods, the car breaks down etc. I'm not getting weeks (or even 1 day) of extra paid leave or anything.