Employers and Trade Union

[HeavenIsNotAPlaceAtWork]

Going through some forced changes at work, my employers will not acknowledge the trade unions. Is this legal?

Depends what you mean by 'acknowledge' really. Are the unions formally recognised at work? If not, this is the process that needs to be gone through to get them recognised.

What are the unions doing which is going unacknowledged? What are the forced changes, do they involve job losses or anything? Are the affected staff members of a union and want to bring a rep to a meeting?

Sorry for the questions!

The company doesn't recognise unions as such but we were outsourced from local authority.

New company are reducing hours and therefore pay. They will not allow unions to any meetings saying they are staff only but then the meetings turn out to be consultations.

If the recognition agreement didn't transfer (under some circumstances it does, others not), then if the agreement in place previously provided for unions to be involved in consultation, that right doesn't transfer either.

Individually, employees have the right to be accompanied by a union rep at disciplinary/grievance hearings, or at another meeting where the outcome could be their dismissal, such as a capability hearing, or a final redundancy consultation.

If there is no recognition agreement and the employer is consulting on changes to terms and conditions, the employees have no right to be accompanied to these meetings.

Yes, there was a recognised agreement.

Yes, I know there was previously, but it sounds like there isn't now, and if it didn't transfer under the TUPE, then the fact that the LA recognition agreement may have provided for union presence at consultations of this nature is irrelevant.

The circumstances in which a trade union recognition agreement transfers under TUPE are fairly limited since it applies where the transferring undertaking retains an identity which is distinct from the new employer. I deal with this a lot and only rarely see it happen since most of the time the employees are amalgamated into the workforce of the new employer (although often the unions will persuade the new employer to recognise them voluntarily).

How are they proposing to effect the changes? If they are looking at dismissal and re-engagement for those who do not agree then that would ultimately involve dismissal and you would have the right to take a TU rep even if the employer doesn't recognise them.

Although even then you would need to argue that it went to the general fairness of the dismissal since technically the statutory right to be accompanied only relates to disciplinary and grievance hearings and not to things such as redundancy dismissals (although most employers allow representation at these meetings just to be safe)

As far as I'm aware the agreement transferred. My union haven't said it didn't .

As cloudtree says union recognition agreements only transfer in specific circumstances so don’t assume that’s the case. I’d say if the agreement did transfer and it included provision for this type of consultation, the unions would be insisting.

The alternative is that the agreement did transfer but that the employer is being strict about the statutory right to be accompanied and the fact that it technically only applies to disciplinary or grievance meetings (and these meetings don't fit into either category so they are not allowing that).

In any event an employer can always act in breach of the law if they want to. There will just potentially be consequences of such a decision (eg a tribunal claim).

Well yes, if the recognition agreement did transfer and includes provision for the unions to be consulted on changes, the employer might just be ignoring the agreement I suppose!

either way OP I think you need to ask your union..

I've checked again and yes the recognition agreement did transfer. My union said they are legally allowed to attend negotiation meetings or redundancy meetings.

if they said they are "legally allowed" then I'm assuming they mean contractually allowed under the terms of their recognition agreement since it isn't a legal right.

The answer hasn't changed. Your union should be taking this up with your employer if they believe the employer is in breach of the recognition agreement.

Have you contacted your union?
What have they said?

Copy in the regional office and officer in your correspondence.
Pm me for more specific advice if it’s unison

huck its a one page thread. have you read any of it?

I’ve read it.
She hasn’t said what her union is doing about it
A branch may not understand the tupe agreement and it need full time official advice,.

The union saying that they have recognition is not enough unless they are actively defending the member’s rights of recognition.

Ffs - I did get it, trying to give slightly more Advice than contact your union, coz not all branches have the same level of expertise,

Sorry
That was grumpy
I have sore back, I don’t mean to sound grumpy.
Just trying to make sure that she’s not fobbed off by the union office, which I have seen happen.

I probably started the grumpiness having been up since 3.30. its just your first question was have you contacted your union and the OP says she has spoken with the union.

The Op is giving slightly conflicting info since she says the company doesn't recognise the union. Recognition is unlikely to have transferred via TUPE. Likelihood is that she doesn't have a contractual right to be accompanied and that the union doesn't have recognition and so isn't in a strong position. Otherwise I can't understand why the union wouldn't be kicking off about it

We are good cloud

In my experience
(And I am an fto for a union). The union doesn’t kick off, because someone without the knowledge is asked the question and doesn’t flag it higher.
I would be really surprised to have an outsourcing done with recognition being a prerequisite. Unless the empployee numbers were very low, and the union density even lower.

I'm not meaning to give conflicting information. At a meeting my department was told they "won't be involving the unions". The company handbooks says they don't recognise the TU- but we are outsourced.

But.... as far as I'm aware there was a recognition agreement that was transferred on date of transfer.

I don't think you'd know though OP unless you work in HR or legal.

Whilst there will have been TU recognition at your previous public sector employer, it is quite possible that it didn't transfer under TUPE since the circumstances in which it transfers are limited. The fact that there was an 'outsourcing' is not the determining factor.

and in any event a recognition agreement transferring still doesn't mean that you would have the right to be accompanied. The recognition agreement would have to say that you do have such a right in these circumstances and the recognition agreement would then also have to be incorporated into your contract (and generally they are not).

The council and the union have said the recognition agreement transferred.

Ok, so they don't have an automatic right to attend a meeting that is a significant change to our contracts?

”Ok, so they don't have an automatic right to attend a meeting that is a significant change to our contracts?”

It depends what the recognition agreement says!