NHS staff leaving - forcing others to leave

[CountryLovingGirl]

Hi,

21 years in the NHS and I have never seen it so bad. We don't work as nurses but do nights/weekends just the same, in a professional role. However, before Jeremy Hunt announced that he wanted a 7 day NHS, without increasing staffing levels, we only did 1 in 4 weekends and a manageable amount of on-call/nights. Now we are working a ridiculous amount of weekends and nights etc. then quick turnaround for early shifts. Staff are tired. There is nothing in our contract to stop them. Management all work M-F 9-5 of course.

The increase in out of hours and a ridiculous pattern of shifts (causing staff to become tired and no quality of life) has put pressure on staff especially parents. We have had a lot of sickness (not myself but close colleagues I've worked with for years) and this, in itself put pressure on the ones remaining as the same number of shifts needed to be covered. We had 3 members of staff off for over 6 months. Their shifts had to be covered by the rest of us.
People also struggle to get childcare now. No family friendly working apart from the few who already had it. Again, this puts pressure on the remainder.
In the last 4 months we have had 4 staff resign. They were absolutely distraught. All mums, 3 of them were part time but still struggled. They had all gone through university etc. and had many years of training. All 4 had no job to go to but they just could not go on.

In a drive to save money the above staff were replaced with lower grades. They are unable to work weekends and nights as they are not qualified to be left unsupervised. Again, the pressure mounts on the remaining staff. Can you see the picture forming?

Sadly, I am now finding it impossible to continue myself. Struggling with childcare and tiredness. Highly specialised in my field but can't go on.

Is anyone else in the NHS finding the cutbacks and 7 day service thing a bit too much? Why can't the unions do anything?

@ivy my reference, for me and in my opinion for other women, is me. I had my babies private and it was great and miles better than my friends who didn't. I feel that people should be accountable for traumatising women when at their most vulnerable and after being birth partner for a friend in london and seeing how awful it was for her i feel really strongly about it. I don't really care if that's offensive, it's an uncomfortable truth but it's also inexcusable what goes on.

Hubby tells me to walk off the ward at the end of my shift when there's nobody to hand over to and I'm still there, or just leave for my break even though there's no one to cover. He doesn't understand that the nmc would strike me off for that. It's not that simple.

Anyway, I've just handed my notice in and am counting down the shifts. Am leaving the NHS and won't be back.

Oh im sorry, wrong thread. It's not necessarily private healthcare it's just anything that isn't the farce that is the nhs. Missed appointments due to admin errors, operations cancelled, not enough theatre time / space, overworked staff, not enough beds, a&e units being shut down, shit maternity care, long waiting lists which mean people die. That type of thing is why i choose private because then i get organisation, consultant choice and staff that are alert enough to be safe you see? That's kind of the goal imo the nhs should be aiming for - effective healthcare. Good luck with championing the nhs as it is now though

@viva where do all the nhs staff go when they leave? Is it to a different field / country / sector? Are qualification requirements for nurses etc different in private sector? I say this because for some branches of nursing aren't some courses not centralised in terms of degree entry requirement?

I think a lot leave healthcare completely. The ones I know of recently have left to be a nail technician, gym instructor, dog walker, work in a cafe.

But qualification requirements are the same for private sector staff. So some leave to go private.

And I believe that all branches of nursing are now degree routes, the nmc made this a national requirement.

Though of course nursing is going full circle and bringing back "unqualified nurses" i.e. The old SENs and calling them Nurse Associates. Lower pay, on the job training with some classroom stuff I believe. But certainly not a 3 year degree.

@viva wow that's interesting, i mean that the state of the nhs has put them off the profession entirely. I cracked my ribs last summer after fainting and had to go to ae as i had hit my head and needed a jaw xray - the nurse who examined me could barely keep her eyes open and they put a monitor on me with those sticky tabs for your chest. 'Sticky' tabs wouldn't stick and nurse said "they used to buy ones that actually worked, none of these ever stick so i can't tell if they give an accurate reading" that's how i feel about the nhs generally, money spent on propping it up but half arse measures that don't work. Frustrating to watch - like a traincrash.

I don't think that the govt has any interest in sorting it out. Privatisation is creeping in quite quickly. I've just been referred for an orthopaedic issue and rather than be sent to the NHS I'm been sent (by the NHS) to a private clinic, where if deemed necessary they will do MRI, steroid injection, etc.

Many hospitals have various services run privately, so the entire dermatology dept may be private.....though when that happened locally all the consultants handed their notice in as they refused to work for the new company so they had to back down! Wiltshire has all its outpatient paediatric services provided by Virgin Healthcare.

People are making a lot of money out the NHS. And the service provided is suffering as a result. We frequently have a purchasing ban on non essential stuff. So we run out of staples and sellotape and then get bollocked for not attaching test result print offs correctly, but we can't attach them as we have no method of doing so! I've always had to buy my own pen and stethoscope. We used to have to buy our own thermometers until we pointed out the £6 thermometers from Tesco said "for home use only" and may not be that accurate!

And if we need to buy some plastic storage boxes as infection control has recently said everything has to be in a box we can't get them from Poundland or amazon for £4. We have to buy through NHS purchasing and they're £55 a box.......we needed 40 boxes for our ward!

@viva why are the nhs sending patients to private departments though when they're so fanatical about saving money? I truly do not understand. I'd love to know the criteria for getting a management position on the nhs...

I also don't understand, so many nhs staff get signed off due to stress but then locums etc (is that the correct term, medical temp staff?) are brought in and they cost more?

Are these tactics being done on purpose to finish it off?! I really don't get it. Personally if it was restructured with maybe co-pay, pay for gp appointments etc like they have in some european countries i would be happy to do that.

The NHS isn't funded properly. We live in America and pay cash price at our local non profit hospital here in the US. It's good quality care with my CS costing $9500 (about £6500) including a 4 night stay in a private room with my own bathroom, a nursery available to send the baby to so I could sleep and three meals a day that were very yummy. I received excellent postnatal care. Our copay was expensive last time but the cost in the last five years hasn't changed much.

Meanwhile the NHS budgets £3500 for a c section. They achieve this by having post partum wards where mothers who are recovering are expected to also look after their newborn. Many leave before 72 hours post operation. It's major surgery and a lot can go wrong. To call it better care is misleading. It's not better, it's cheaper with staff and patients paying the price.

Don't get me started about the cancer care my father has received. We are begging him to leave and live with us. It would be cheaper and the care infinity better in terms of coordination between different areas. He refuses to leave the U.K. as it would be a loss of independence for him. Meanwhile I've had to kick up a fuss, start an ongoing complaint with PALS and hire a lawyer to handle our complaint because of the sheer volume of errors made and bullshit replies from NHS senior management.

It's absolutely no wonder more staff aren't leaving. Morale is through the floor and when I buy lunch for the nurses looking after my Dad many have said it's the only time they actually get a chance to eat. Here in America when you receive treatment on a ward you buy a meal for the staff looking after you. No one does that in England. It's an expectation that the NHS should be 'free' and the clinical staff are there to serve. From what I have seen while my father has been treated even the NHS management have no respect for the clinical staff.

Some of the solutions on this thread are, erm, interesting...

It’s because our houses are so expensive! What should we all do? Sell them and all make ourselves homeless?

It’s because we don’t pay for three yummy meals a day! Good plan, let’s push the whole thing even further into the red? Or demand more funding so everyone can have private rooms and nurseries?

abra you misunderstand my point. Yes you pay less for the NHS but you also get less in return. You don't realize how badly funded the NHS is until you go elsewhere and see what you get service level wise. I've seen first hand the medical care in Denmark, Canada, America and the Uk. The standard in the Uk is significantly below the other countries because of the funding. You get the same steps performed but in a very disjointed inefficient manner over a much longer period of time with the NHS. Preventative care is not seen as necessary which also creates huge inefficiencies later on.

This cannot just be blamed on the government we have now. Of course they bear some of the blame but this has been coming for many years and many governments. I remember well arguing with friends in the 1980s that Ken Clarke's introduction of an "internal market" and expecting to run the NHS as a business was a bad idea

Those of you are leaving / have left, are you working now? And if so, where?

Everyone says they are leaving teaching and the NHS in droves, but where are they actually going to?!

Here in the NYC area there quite a few NHS doctors who have been here for a few years now. My dads GP here in the Us is one. Spent one year after qualifying in the U.K. as a GP before moving over. Has been here since.

I think a fair few move abroad to Australia and New Zealand and others who stay in the UK move into a second career or go into something health related like private healthcare provision, gym, pharma or medical tech.

I was just talking to my dad about this! I’m about to quit my professional job and career and I’m applying for a job that requires no qualifications.

Just realised I can’t keep going. Most of my peers feel the same and the ones who aren’t pushing their retirement forward are looking at options too.

My dad recommended this book (I haven’t read it yet but will). He said what we’re discussing is discussed in detail.

@toothy, I have no idea about the logic of privatising depts. on one hand if a private company is running it I feel that surely they're doing this to make a profit? If a private company can make a profit doing it then the NHS must surely be able to make it break even?

Maybe the private companies are just more ruthless, so cut staff, cut wages, cut staff sickness benefits, limit who is allowed an operation (so no knee replacements for anyone with a BMi of 30 or over even if it's clinically warranted, very limited ivf, no cancer treatment for anyone over 70yo). And the NHS don't/won't run their services like this.....but happy to let someone else do it on their behalf. But ultimately from the patients point of view the system gets worse.

I'm trying to hang on for five more years, in a job that is fantastic when the constant pressure of crisis remits for a few days. Its a well managed service, but I do feel staff are used as fodder until they just can't take any more and leave.

I'm so sorry. I hear you all, especially the point made about some big gobbed non-public workers thinking we just moan all the time and we have all the fantastic holidays and pensions. I'm at my wits ends trying to combat the lies. I'm public service but not in an area where people's health/lives are at stake, thank god, I really couldn't do it. I make so many stupid mistakes (doing a job that was done by 3 people 2 years ago) but at least I can fix my errors and just be shouted at - everyday and usually including the phrases 'I pay your wages' 'you want to use some of that pension money to deliver the services' 'it would get done if you didn't take every Friday off'

I think the NHS is badly funded. I am lucky enough to have my 3 yearly smear test and otherwise I never darken my GP's doors or go anywhere else. My son is having NHS orthondontist treatment though.

But my mum has several health conditions which involves her using two different hospitals. One is very efficient, clinics run more or less to time, she gets her appointment letters on time, she can speak to someone when she calls, referrals are made promptly.

The other is not.

That suggests to me that not all is down to money and at least some down to working practices.

Why on earth is the NHS so wedded to letters, for example? Emails and texts are routinely used in the private sector. My mother had to wait 2 weeks for a referral which was supposed to be a priority. Not because the consultant didn't do it the day he saw her, but because he dictated a tape which took a week to be transcribed and then another week to reach the other hospital. Had he used dictation software (which I understand is eg available on iphones, I've not seen it on Android or Windows but it might be available there now) where it literally types the letter as you speak it, he could have had the letter typed as he dictated it, checked it and sent it direct by email to the GP., my mother, and the other doctor he was referring her to. It would cost no more and would be same day service.

And before someone says data protection - why are letters safer than an email?

Not NHS here, but I am hearing this from a great many friends, working in many differing occupational areas, including the NHS. Cuts to terms and conditions, an employee leaves and the work is redistributed, hours extended and remaining employees expected to cover any gaps, at any time. Sickness, what's that? If you can crawl to work you are expected to be in, or deal with as much as possible virtually. I don't know why work is often such a awful place to be (it is not just money, but an approach) but it seems to be everywhere and if you complain, you are met with grievance, dismissal, redundancy or just the cold shoulder. I recently heard of a young employee covering 4 roles, due to sickness / maternity; now how is that meant to work - oh, that they work seven days a week was the answer!! Who can we complain to? It has been happening for a long time now and we need to have unions or staff associations that start helping workers again and get back to what they were formed to do! It is a disgrace and one that I believe will get worse before it gets better imo.