please help - this can't be legal?

[littleredpanda]

Changed name for this.
I work for a big big company, household name. I've worked here for 25 years. I have a business needs vehicle, which I do about 6,000 miles a year in (I work part time). I pay tax on that vehicle and I have personal use of the vehicle. I declare any personal mileage and pay it out of my salary each month. My personal mileage way outweighs my business mileage, but it is still deemed for some reason to be a 'necessary' tool of my job.

I have been told that they are installing equipment in my car. Front, rear and internal cameras with permanent recording, and a GPS tracker, and driving assistance. Should I brake hard, accelerate hard, take a corner hard or exceed a speed limit, inside or outside work, more than twice, that will result in a disciplinary action.

Data for the vehicles whereabouts, and my driving camera recordings both inside and outside working hours, will be available for my manager every week and he has to sign off to say he has seen it and agrees it. If he doesn't, it's a disciplinary.

There is NO privacy button/option.

There is also internal audio recording, but at this time it is 'disabled'.

I have some informal flexibility to work from home at times. On average my working week would probably pan out as 1 day in the office, one day travelling, one day at home. On both my travelling day and my working at home day I would think nothing of starting work at home, running the kids to school, then going to my appointment and picking them up conversely and finishing at home. I'm a single mum and I have no local backup, so juggling is a bloody nightmare at the best of times. On paper, those journeys would look awful and I'm absolutely terrified I'm going to be penalised for this. Not to mention I'm somewhat of an anxious driver anyway, and this bloody shouty voice telling me to 'slow down' or 'speed up' fills me with dread.

I've asked them to take the car back, they have refused. They say that despite being used so little, it's part of my job description and it's a tool of my work. I've asked for a car allowance instead; that too has been refused.

Please advise; I'm going insane about this. I've just had to have a blood pressure check and it's through the roof. It's triggering terrible anxiety which I've never had before. I've no idea what to do about this.

Blimey. I have no advice I'm afraid. I just wanted to send support, it sounds very stressful. Can you afford to buy your own car for personal use? It would at least relieve some of the pressure on your personal time. I hope someone more knowledgeable about the legalities of this comes along soon.

Its absolutely legal im afraid, lots of companies have installed this type of system into their vehicle fleets for a couple of years now, driver training can also be part of the programme. The systems are designed to help reduce costs, not only in terms of monitoring driving standards, but also in maintenance of vehicles, fueld economy, wear and tear on the vehicles from the way it is driven, (tyres, brakes, damage).

Some fleets also use it to optimise travel planning, think Ocado, BT, Yodel etc. The MOD have used it for years with a traffic light system that tells the driver they are going too fast etc. Im afraid this type of thing is becoming the norm.

Sorry no help what's so ever. I will agree with with that this sounds horrible and I would be very unhappy about the invasion of privacy. Have you consulted the union about them forcing you to have the car?

There are many different implications here. Do not give consent in any way until you have taken some legal advice. Have a read on this link:

www.uktelematicsonline.co.uk/html/employee_rights_and_vehicle_tr.html

It is extremely unlikely that recording you in your private time would not be considered excessive.

You may need to raise a grievance with your employer in order to address this further.

It is not cut and dry by any means, particularly as you say it is recording during personal time.

The only thing I would say is if you've been doing things in the grey so to speak and have no evidence that you've been allowed to do the school runs etc then digging your heels may get further scrutiny which could result in dismissal (obviously depending on what is found).

Don't be afraid to take them on, I don't care how big they are (and in my experiences some of the biggest corporations can be the worst at treading on employees basic rights) if they're in the wrong you can win and continue employment there.

I'm trying to get a definitive answer but everything I can find so far such as this

vehicletracking.expertmarket.co.uk/uk-law-vehicle-tracking-devices

indicates that there must be a way for the tracking to be disabled outside of working hours.

I would get a personal car (cheap run around) and use the car work for business purpose only.

thank you all.

To clarify; I don't really mind them tracking me during working hours (why would I?) as long as they don't misconstrue my whereabouts or variable working pattern as 'not working'. So as an example, with NO privacy option my day would look like this:

leaves house at 8.10, goes to school. Leaves school at 8.22. Arrives at office at 8.40 (acceptable start time)
Vehicle does not move until 2.35, goes to school, then goes home. Arrives at home address at 3.10.
That LOOKS awful, but the reality is that I've been up and working (annotating a piece of work) since 7am. My 'working break' during the day is 2.30-3.30 and then I carry on working at home. I carry on working till gone 5pm (kids are outside playing with neighbours in the garden and are well old enough to get themselves a drink and snack). When I do end up stopping work I've ended up actually working all the hours I should, and actually more if you count the work I did at home before leaving in the morning.

I wouldn't every do this sort of working pattern unless it suits the business needs; that always comes first. It's if it happens to fit, and not every day. And that's just an example, to be honest, my days don't often pan out the same.

I also don't want them to know where I am for the vast majority of my time. I only work a 20 hour week - but for the other 146 hours of my time, they'll know where I am and what I'm doing. Even during my working 'break' during the day, they'll know what I'm doing. And without being able to demonstrate that was something I was doing in my break by virtue of a privacy button, they can't discern that.

There are also a great many employees who do have a car allowance; they are not being made to have this equipment in their cars.

They have reiterated time and time again that there will definitely be no privacy option. They want to protect their assets 24/7 and that means knowing exactly where they are (their words).

I have contacted my union but no response as of yet.

I could afford, just, to buy my own vehicle but only if they removed this car from me and the associated tax implication (£75 a month, increasing shortly to £100 a month, I could certainly afford insurance and any potential tax with that, and my parents have said they would give me £1000 to buy a run around). But I am told repeatedly I need to keep the car for my role. There are other roles in the company who have occasional driving; they use their own cars but then can book hire cars. For a once a week/fortnight use situation I'd be more than happy with this arrangement. But they are refusing to let me change.

I feel pretty trapped and violated, to be honest, which might sound extreme, but I have a pretty stressful and responsible role as it is. I struggle to 'switch off' from work at times, and now every single time I get in the car I am going to be judged and reminded and reprimanded at times.

You have a reasonable expectation of privacy, and monitoring you outside work times isn't acceptable. You need a privacy button for personal journeys.

I'm unsure though why the journey pattern you mention 'looks awful'? Presumably your manager is aware of your working pattern when you work at home, and is aware that you do the school run during working hours and make it up later, and work while the kids are at home after school?

Have a look at the ICO employment practices code. Page 76 deals with in-vehicle monitoring specifically.

Sounds really weird to me. We have exactly that sort of tracking system installed in our fleet, but ONLY the vehicles that have no "personal use" entitlement. Company cars - even those allocated on a "business needs" basis - do not and cannot have these trackers fitted, which I was always told was because of not being able to turn the trackers off, and not being allowed to track people's quite reasonable personal use.

That's purely hearsay mind you, but I absolutely wouldn't be agreeing to things without exploring the legalities of it fully. I agree with you, it sounds unlikely to be legit, but it's odd your company wouldn't know this so who knows!

I will read those links, yes. I don't really know where to go with the argument though - the fleet team?

To put this in perspective too.....

The only notification of this has been a tiny (and I mean tiny) little box on the front page of our internal home internet page. Which then fell off the page surpassed by other news within 24 hours. Several people who have these cars who I have spoken to were completely unaware of it. However for scale, it's being rolled out within the next 3 weeks to the entire fleet of 4,500 cars. Every single fleet car is going to have it by the end of the month. I don't know how they have got away with this but they clearly have.

flowery maybe it doesn't look awful, with my justification alongside it, but I probably do push the 'home working' side of things. It just makes my home/work balance just about tolerable.
We are issued with the capability of home working/remote working by virtue of the correct IT systems to do so. My prior manager (3 years of working for him) used to say 'I don't care what you're doing as long as you are doing your job, just don't take the piss' - he didn't want to be bothered with me telling him I was starting 10 minutes late or finishing 10 minutes early, or that I was at home - he really couldn't care less - as long as I am performing (I am, every review for the last 4 reviews I am 'above expectations'). But I have a new manager now who in his own words 'can be an arrogant git' and he is far more likely to scrutinise me. I guess I need to arrange to have an open discussion with him around this, but I also understood situations over time become precedents. I have been working from home, informally, as and when it suits the business needs, for at least one day a week for the last 9 years. I'm just worried I'm on shaky ground.

As I say, I do of course appreciate that my childcare/home life is my own issue to sort out, but I do do everything which is asked of me. It's the 'perception' which worries me.

There are other roles in the company who have occasional driving; they use their own cars but then can book hire cars. For a once a week/fortnight use situation I'd be more than happy with this arrangement. But they are refusing to let me change.

You could state that you are being treated unfavourable in comparison to similar roles where they are permitted to use their own car. You are being denied a choice which could be deemed discriminatory.

They sound an unreasonable employer in this regard.

I agree with flowery re somewhat puzzling description of "awful". If you are starting and finishing your job aligned to the timings in your contract, and working the hours you have agreed, to whom would it look awful? Start documenting your hours if you feel you are under undue unfair scrutiny re working hours.

This wouldn't bother me at all. I have a company car and appreciate that it's not mine and my employer would want to ensure that I'm not texting while driving, for example.

You've made some huge assumptions. As pp's have said, why does your work pattern "look awful"? Also why do you say you are going to get reprimanded all the time? I doubt anyone is interested in where you go on your days off; you really aren't that fascinating. If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear. If you're a high performer as you say, no-one is really looking for a reason to fire you.

"I don't know how they have got away with this but they clearly have"

They've only got away with it if no one challenges it. ICO code is very clear on the subject in terms of employee notification/consent/privacy.

In terms of the other issue, I can't see that anyone would or could challenge the working from home as such. As you say, there is a precedent there and it has been working well.

It's not the fact of working from home though, is it? If your manager is thinking you are working and fully available for your normal working hours, just at home rather than at the office, then he might not be too chuffed to find out that you are skipping out to do the school run during working hours, or that you are working whilst also responsible for your children without childcare in place.

I agree that tracking your personal journeys in the car is unacceptable, but I do think you are bringing a lot of stress on yourself if you are feeling like you need to hide the fact that you are working without childcare and are doing the school run when your manager thinks you're working. Because even if this tracking doesn't go ahead, of course you might be 'found out' another way.

I'm not sure how concerned you need to be. If you're performing well doing the hours you need to do, and there aren't any concerns there, no one will be looking for a reason to get rid of you, and you've probably got no reason to worry.

But I suggest you consider being a little bit more open about how you work, in a very casual 'have always been doing this' kind of way if you get the opportunity, just so you're not stressing about being found out.

Your union should help. Monitoring you in non-work time is may not be compatible with your right to privacy under the HRA or with ICO rules but a lot depends on the exact circumstances, employer etc

May be wrong, but pretty sure no taxable benefit if there's no private use at all. Sorted. Just buy your own car fro private use and do no personal miles at all in the company car.

May be wrong, but pretty sure no taxable benefit if there's no private use at all

The OP isn't asking about taxable benefit so I'm not sure of the relevance to this thread. However, I'm afraid you are wrong.

The question for tax purposes is whether or not the car is available for private use. If it is available for private use there is a taxable benefit even if the employee does not actually use it privately at all. A car provided to an employee is available for private use unless the employee is specifically prohibited from using it privately. Simply buying a car for private use and not doing any personal miles in the company car won't remove the taxable benefit.

I agree with daisy. Loads of people reject company cars these days as the tax position is so horrible and it's just about always expected. It sounds like they only want to impose this option on you because they think you are slacking off and working like a self employed person as you choose rather than with fixed hours they absolutely control, yet they have been perfectly happy until now about the work you do fitting around your children. Now you've made a fuss about it they presumably think you are hardly working any hours a day I suppose. Perhaps you need to send them details of a typical day and hours to put their minds at rest.

So the solution might be reject the company car. Buy a cheap £1k run around car and use that when you need to for work and claim back the mileage.

Thank you. I'm not much progressed as I'm on leave but steeling myself for my return. To clarify:

I am working part time but paying the same in tax as a full time person. It's not just the shitty tracking which is making me want to do this.

According to my corporate policy, I have a choice - my category of user is entitled to EITHER a car allowance, or a vehicle. I tried 6 months ago to change to an allowance and was told that I couldn't. At the time I dismissed it but now I'm pushing further. Why can't I? It's policy!! At times (rare times) I need to carry a bit of equipment. It would fill a plastic storage box max. I'm not about to buy a smart car here, but that was cited - you need to keep the car you have (estate) to carry this equipment (I've carried it once in eight years, to put that in context and they have no idea what car I am suggesting I buy!).

I've asked to make the car a pool car and I'll only use for work trips. Refused. Asked to just take the car altogether, they refused, said because of carrying aforementioned kit, it's a 'necessary tool'. I am being made to pay tax and have this 'benefit' even if I choose not to use the benefit. And it's a benefit which tracks and records me whenever it is in use. I get a disciplinary if I don't drive to their standards even in my own time. If I do 35 in a 30 on a Saturday, it's me who gets the points and the fine, not them?! I don't want to think about getting a bollocking from my boss every time I get behind the wheel. It makes it impossible to switch off from work.

I don't care about them watching me at work, but I want privacy outside of work. Their 'asset' is protected anyway; its insured! I don't want them having visibility of me going to interviews/union meetings/volunteer work I do at weekends/where I shop/where my kids are/ or anything else regardless of what it is (and I don't go to job interviews, or union meetings, but it's about perception). It cannot be 'okay' for your manager to know where you are 24/7?!

prh47bridge the reason I referred to table benefit is because the OP said she could afford the road tax and ins if the tax paid on the company car wasn't coming off her wages. Had I been right it would have been relevant; alas I was not.

For your concern about the fact that your work patterns look odd, you could look into what evidence your IT dept retain on your time working on the computer.
For me, there's certainly logging of when I'm working, and when machine is off, and to some extent what I'm doing. This is all reasonable monitoring, and if they do it, it may be useful to understand how that shows the full extent of your working each day (in case your new, arsey boss implies you're doing short hours).
From experience, its often worth having I to ready, before someone asks the question.

Have a look at this.

There either has to be a privacy button or they are not to collect data on you in your own time.

I would use the car for work in work hours and then leave it at the work car park.

No way in hell would I want my driving and conversations to be recorded out of work time

Regardless of the privacy issue, what are your contracted hours (you said 20, but what times should you be in the office when not travelling) and days? From the example you have given you leave work at 2.35pm every day you are in the office. It does look like your company are paying you to care for your children at home for almost 2 hours every working day. Do you always collect the children from school or does this vary?

As a PP said there may be IT data that shows you are working during those hours. I think you may have to steel yourself and speak to the (newish) manager about your working arrangements!

I completely understand about not collecting data on personal journeys, but on the example given above it would still show the car as being at home from 3.35pm each day!

If you have an understanding manager it might be worth a chat to him/her to explain your concerns and flag what might look like unusual movements ahead of time. You can reassure them at that point that you still manage to meet your workload/ make up the time elsewhere even though you have commitments outside of work that you have to honour.

With regards to working pattern until something else is sorted, I would send a weekly timetable (either for the week ahead or past week) to my manager. Whether he reads it or not is up to him but he can't say he didn't know or you were keeping things secret. Could you also make a point of emailing something to someone during each "shift" so they know you're working.
I'd maybe start that now tbh so you can be reassured it isn't an issue before the monitoring comes in.
It also seems very stressful for you so I'd be maybe thinking about whether I need the car on a personal level anyway.