Are nurseries bad for young children's emotional development?

[OldieMum]

The Guardian has made this a front-page issue today and it also has a long, and thoughtful article by Madeleine Bunting, here Both stories report on a growing body of evidence suggesting that children under 2 in group daycare (ie not childminders, grandparents or nannies) show signs of being less co-operative and more aggressive later on, even though they may have better cognitive skills. Children over 2 seem more clearly to benefit
from group care, perhaps because they are interacting more with other children by then. Under 2, they mainly interact with staff, who do not pay them enough individually-tailored attention (Bunting talks about an 'emotionally bland' kind of interaction). DD (18 months) goes to a small nursery three days a week, so I have a strong personal interest in all this. What are other people's observations about the impact of daycare on their children? I feel very positive about it. DD gets a lot of attention from the staff and she loves going there.

bunnyrabbit yes, my three all get loads of cuddles and tlc from the ladies at nursery. If ds is with me when I pick up dd's some of the staff still want to cuddle him and tell him that they miss him.

Stripey

At DS's nursery they go out everyday if the weather is nice enough.

And as for singling babies out? Does this Really happen? I have never heard this before and am frankly quite shocked. What do they do? Not cuddle them as much?

BR

Aw JMG, that's so sweet... when DH drops DS off in the mornings they all make a grab for him. It's like they all want to cuddle him. The carers from all the different sections seem to visit the other secions in their breaks to, so they meet other babies/children and just play with them and give them cuddles. I think it's lovely.

BR

jmg - I'm not surprised - he is a sweet little boy!!

Personally think how the child turns out depends on the standard of care, not the type. You might have a child in a good nursery turn out better than a child with a 'bad' SAHM - its just the standard of care they recieve.

Agree agree agree Katierocket. Also Bunnyrabbit re: emotive language.

well said bunnyrabbit

I does depend a LOT on the quality of the childcare, dd's nursery is fantastci and over 2 years I've had a chance of getting to know the staff well, same of them also babysit for us, and TBH she probably gets more attention there than from me osme days, when I'll try and read a magazine while she's playing on her own!!!

stripey can't understand where you get the notion that nurseries do not take children outside, all the ones I've looked at had a garden and playarea outside!

I'd just like to point out, by the way, that I don't just work because I have to. I like my job. And now I'm feeling guilty because I'd rather work four days a week and have my children in childcare than be with them full-time. And while I'm about it, I've worked since they were very small and although I didn't actually have a choice (see freelance moans) I didn't mind that much either.

Can't win, can we?

I have met several people who have put babies into nursery not because they absolutely have to but because they 'want' to go back to work - not always full time but I do know a few who have put babies as young as 18 weeks into full time nursery to return to work and I am sorry to offend but I do think it is wrong. I don't see how it cannot have any affect on a child.

If families don't have a choice then they don't have a choice. Appologies to Fio2 and jmg1 I am sure I would do the same in your situations but I suppose I can't really understand mothers who choose to have a baby then choose to immediately return to work full time but then again maybe that is another thread altogether.

stripey - just out of interest, around what sort of age would you say was right to put a child into daycare?

Oh Bloody Hell, not more guilt inducing 'studies'

Right, cards on the table, and rolling up sleeves

I was a SAHM. My kids stayed at home with me and went to the odd creche session so that I stayed sane, so I have no axe to grind or 'guilt' re childcare in small children.

But FFS, this is a half arsed bit of 'research'. Where are the controls? How can we be sure that the probelsm in these children (if they exist in reality) are not caused by poverty that often drives parents to place children in long term day care?

And the big, 'natural', line of argument. It is 'natural' for babies to be with other babies, look at any tribal society. Tamum described it beautifully. Children need to be with other children. If we are raising out kids 'naturaly' then being stuck in the house with one or two toddlers is not natural. We should live with our sisters and cousins and share the child care, but we don't, so what is 'natural' about staying home with your kids? Very little as far as I can see.

And where the hell are the dads in all of this? Just another stick to beat mothers with as far as I can see. Load of over emotional cobblers!

Thank you, hmb.

stripey

there's a lot of women out there who enjoy being mothers, but they need something more in their life. Not everyone is cut out for staying at home all day with children.

hear hear webmum

Funny this thread's come up now because at this very moment I'm surfing the net reading about my local nurseries because I'm going to try and put my dd into one. And I refuse to feel guilty about it because as far as I'm concerned, I need to work (p/t) and so she'll need someone else looking after her and I think a nursery would suit her best.

I don't have any children (yet) so don't really have the kind of experience that all of you do but I was a childrens nanny in my previous life! When I worked as a nanny (now 14 years ago) I always thought that I would want to be a SAHM. My feeling was, why have children if you then want to leave them with someone else? However, over the years my thoughts about it have changed and even in the past year they have. When I was pregnant last year, my thoughts were to take the maximum year off and then to return to work part time after that. I'm on my own with no DH to support me but am in, thankfully, a fairly well paid job. However, if my pay wasn't that great then it would seem a little pointless to go to work only to have to pay out nursery fees and be left with next to nothing. Anyway, to get to my point, sorry, I feel that if I have a child now (fingers crossed, please) then both my child and myself would benefit from interaction with other people. If my DH was still alive, then maybe I would feel a bit different. I don't have family near me and am not really comfortable with the idea of CM's. That's only my opinion and i'm sure there are loads of lovely CM's out there but...... I had already checked out some nurseries and had recommendations and came up with the local hospital one that is run for the nurses but that has a few public places too. When I need it, I can only hope that I will be doing my best and that my child will benefit.

Hi, this is my first post and I'm going to throw a spanner!

I have a 6 month old first child and have decided to stay at home til he's at least one and have been feeling monumentaly guilty for ceasing to be a "useful memeber of society". No one has actually said this to me, but everyone's second question (after "how old is he" is "when are you going back to work" (like raising a child isn't work). This article (which I read cover to cover) has given me a whole new perspective. It implies (I believe) that the real reason the government wishes to get all us mums back to work is so that they can collect taxes from us. In the meantime we earn (on average) less than our male partners, spend huge amounts on childcare and feel horribly guilty that we are raising disfunctional members of society. So I am now going to view staying at home as a blow for freedom.

Sorry that turned into a bit of a rant, but I think the tax issue is a valid one, are we and our partners more useful working long hours to buy stuff or is our time better spent trying to consciously raise a "better" next generation?

But I'm still concerned about the singling babies out thing.... may be they take their toys away? Don't change their nappy? Take the noisy bit out of their rattles?

Sorry, I'm getting silly now.....

BR

vkone, I'm not criticising your decision but want to point out that I don't pay for childcare. I pay for half. Their father pays the other half.

wobblyknicks I couldn't say what a good age is but I think it would be after age 2 so your child can at least come home and tell you what they did if anything bad had happened etc - but thats just my opinion.

Hmb I would hardly compare nurseries where parents drop babies off at 7.30am and collect them again not long before bedtime to tribal societies. Just because some people choose to look after their children themselves doesn't mean they never see another child or have any friends. My oldest (almost 4) goes to playgroup every morning and has loads of friends who come round and play etc he has a list of 17 friends to invite to his 4th birthday and has been invited to at least 8 parties this year and we do lots of other things outside the house including visiting cousins, mixing with children in parks etc etc.

stripey, why is a childminder a 'better' option? they usually have a number of children, not just one, so won't get one-to-one attention. like nurseries, there are good and bad ones. do you think therefore think that the mothers of twins/multiples should be slammed as providing poorer care for their children??

I am lucky because I like my job and have good childcare for the 3 days a week I have chosen to work. my daughters have never come home with nappy rash, and cots cannot be shared for health and safety reasons. if your friends have complaints about the care it's their duty to speak out or at least take their child out of there once they have found a new carer.
my kids aren't plopped in front of the tv all day and they follow early years learning goals, adapted for each age group.
our nursery is open from 8am-6pm but I don't know a single child who's there for that long. mine go in for breakfast at 8.45ish and they're picked up at about 5.15. i chose a nursery which has outside space (rejected a workplace subsidised place because it didn't have a garden, even though it would have been a lot cheaper for us) and my girls often spend most of the day outside, playing with toys, water, sand.

vkone

As a first post that was a stunner You are so right that we are pushed out to work so quickly and that SAHM is not seen to be a real option.

BTW I did go back to work when both of mine were about 6 months, but I didn't have a choice as I am the main breadwinner - My first dd went into a nursery as I felt they were properly trained to look after her (she had minor health problems associated with being premature) She then had a mix of nursey and childminder (OH NO this means I've damaged her twice over - not only nursery, but a change in childcare as well!!) DD2 had a nanny, who we got rid of in 6 weeks to get another one, oh no, changes again!!

Before I had kids I always wanted to be a hands on mum, but I married the wrong guy (!) now I realise I need to work at least part time, I just wish that there was REAL choice. I think that's all we all want. Childcare that is good and relitively inexpensive and support is we choose to look after own kids (Shocking concept to the government though!)

Actually, if I hadn't found my childminder and her circle I'd have been MUCH happier with a nursery. It's specifically the ethos of 'childcare is a job - an interesting, demanding and rewarding job' that I wanted. I shudder at the thought of someone just slotting my baby in because she'd got one already, as some childminders quite openly do.

bundle I don't think a mother with twins/triplets would ideally need help to look after so many babies at once and don't think that situation is comparable to a nursery taking 3 babies per staff member.

I didn't say a childmider was a better option perse I just meant if you personally knew a good childminder then the home environment maybe less sterile than the 'nursery' environment but of course it depends on the nursery. I have visited a few just as I was considering sending ds2 for a few mornings when he was 2 but none were suitable IMO for my child. It sounds like you have found a good one for yours. I was specifically wanting one where he could play outside as much as he liked because he is a very outdoors type of child but that wasn't possible - maybe it would be at a childminders? but I was only looking at 2-3 hours a few times a week.

Anyway I think I have said enough for today and made my opinion on the whole topic clear so I'll logoff for now.

sorry that should have been I do think not I don't

Bundle,
You should see the 'Fulltime mum thread....'

My DS goes into nursery at 7.30 and is picked up at 5.45 4 days a week and then spends one day with GPs.

I am the major breadwinner and my DH also works fulltime.

We are both under threat of redundancy so although we have worked out that we could just about afford for one of us to drop a day, we daren't risk it just in case the other one doesn't have a job next week.

I would love to have stayed off till DH was 12 months. I stayed off till he was 7 months but because of the pitiful excuse for maternity pay that we get, we used up nearly all our savings just for that.

It is ridiculous that it has to be this way. And we're lucky, we have a house and no debts.

I would not choose for DS to be at nursery so much, but even if I wasn't working, if we could afford it, I think I'd still like him to go a couple of days a week.

After saying that... I now wait for the onslaught.

BR

Stripey, I wasn't making the point that full time child care was like a tribal society.

The point I was making is that SAHM is not 'natural' either, in that we are not supposed to be living in isolated houses with out children. They should, in a 'natural' setting be raised in a more communal setting. Not the same as childcare, but not the same as SAHM either.