Are nurseries bad for young children's emotional development?

[OldieMum]

The Guardian has made this a front-page issue today and it also has a long, and thoughtful article by Madeleine Bunting, here Both stories report on a growing body of evidence suggesting that children under 2 in group daycare (ie not childminders, grandparents or nannies) show signs of being less co-operative and more aggressive later on, even though they may have better cognitive skills. Children over 2 seem more clearly to benefit
from group care, perhaps because they are interacting more with other children by then. Under 2, they mainly interact with staff, who do not pay them enough individually-tailored attention (Bunting talks about an 'emotionally bland' kind of interaction). DD (18 months) goes to a small nursery three days a week, so I have a strong personal interest in all this. What are other people's observations about the impact of daycare on their children? I feel very positive about it. DD gets a lot of attention from the staff and she loves going there.

I don't think the people involved in this research want to blame mothers. They are concerned about a crappy system that gives parents so little choice.

Maybe we should be looking (I'm not sure if the Daycare Trust has any work on this, must check) not so much at the actual form of provision, but the crucial elements within that provision. For instance, at the carer/child ratio, at continuity, at the number of other carers around (I do actually really value that in my childminding arrangements), at the opportunity to be with other children of mixed age range from an early stage (presumably that's important for children who both do and don't then have new siblings to cope with) etc.

Way to go Fio2!

Can anybody honestly say they didn't know this already?

Yes, read the article.

I think the quality of the nursery vs. childminder must make a difference that is not picked up by the research.

With my 1st baby I visited lots of childminders on the Council's list, and frankly I wouldn't have left a gerbil with half of them -- TV constantly on at mega-volume, smoking around the kids, too few toys, main outing seemed to be trips to Sainsburys, that kind of thing.

At 12 months she got a 3-day a week place in the nursery attached to the University where I worked at the time, and it was great. Very small (12 kids, 4 staff) and long-serving staff She loved it, lots of stuff that I couldn't face doing at home and so on.

Having said that, I've seen nurseries that are less great, and I always feel a bit sad when I see little four-month olds at nurseries. Long hours also mean extra shift changes so more staff around which can't be brilliant. Once you're onto subsequent children, particularly if older ones are at school you're more likely to be plugged into a network of childminders/babysitters/nannies which makes it easier to find the kind of care you really want.

The problem with this kind of research is that you're never told how they came to the conclusions, what the sample was, how they assessed children's behaviour and have any otehr factors been considered??

ANother thing to remmeber is that in a few months you'll get some research that says exactly the opposite....I definitely do not let them influence me in my choices.

Last point, I fail to see how a baby can get more ontoone interaction with a childminder that might have up to 5 children in her care (2 of which are older and with different needs), while the ratio in nurseries is one to 3?? (not criticings childminders per se, just fail to see the difference)

I have read it!

Fio 2 - I read this this am on my way into work and it made me incredibly cross that only mothers are mentioned and the article revolves around womens guilt and the choices mothers make as tho fathers have nothing to do with the issue at all. Is it any wonder mothers feel guilty when the debate is centred around their responsibility for childcare rather than the family's role. I also think many generations of children have grown up without devoted one-on-one attention for the first two years of the kind they describe as ideal - I simply don't believ in thsi golden age of childcare when all women were at home. I was at home with my mum but she fitted me in around the housework (this is her description) and says she gave me nothing like the attention I give my children when I'm with them. I didn't see anything in the article to show that they had compared research now with findings for previous generations of children. FWIW both my children go to nursery some days and are with me/dp the rest of the time and these findings don't reflect my experience or that of the other children I know.

I think the positives are, yes of course families should be able to make real choices about whether both partners work and yes, ideally nursery workers should be valued, paid more and developed in their roles and career choices. All costing money tho and nurseries are expensive as it is. Over to Gordon....

Have to say that I didn't like the sound of the Danish nursery AT ALL.

I am so sick of this debate, guilt triping all ready guilt feeling mothers. The nursery dd goes to is fab, yes it can be inconsitent when a member of staff leaves or joins but I can be extremly inconsistent when trying to juggle work life and child, this is the reality of life. As others have said what about Dads guilt? That doesn't happen.
I also saw a number of disgusting child minders, interviewed nannies but balked at having to pay n.i. holiday pay etc. I don't have family near by and even if I did would not assume to burden them with constant child care.
Therefore I would like to tell the so called experts eg Madeleine Bunting to shut up and stop critising. There, midday rant over!

I think as a mother we do 'know' this type of thing. However if this research can be used to change the governments attitude that if you are not working you are not a valuable member of the community type attitude, then I think it is a good thing. I wish I would have stayed at home, I wish it was seen as a viable option, but I don't think it is. Being a SAHM and therefore protecting teh future of our children is not seen as a 'good thing' by the government. Whatever the circumstances we should want to work.

I know a friend of mine with 2 prem baby twins, and at least one of those who had special nees, was continually pushed to work. The problem being she had to take so much time off for appointmnts etc that she couldn't hold down a job (or rather they wouldn't keep her on!) As a single mum with no family to rely on it was a catch 22 situation. I think she should have been supported in the early years, until she could go and get a job once the kids were a bit better, but no that was not seen as viable for her!!

Anyway personally I think that all types of childcare are compromises and that there is so much to feel guilty about as a mother, this is yet one more thing. Suprise suprise

PS My kids have had nurserys, nannys, grannys, and childminders so they are completly screwed

I have a feeling that Madelaine Bunting asked for help on this article on Mumsnet.

Most replies are from Mothers who do put their children into nursery. I am not sure how accurate the research is but I personally wouldn't feel comfortable putting my 4 mth old baby into any nursery. I honestly don't think staff could even come close to looking after a baby the way a mother could, especially when they have one person per 2-3 babies? (not sure of the actual figures).
However I am lucky and I do not have to make that choice. I think if you do have to work then you have to choose an option which you are happiest with. If you know of a brilliant childminder then maybe it is a better option, if you can find a small well run nursery then I am sure as long as the child is well looked after it will be fine. I have know friends whose babies were in nursery and would often come home with nappy rash, shared cots (i.e sheets weren't changed for each baby) and numerous other incidents yet they didn't want to make too much fuss in case the staff singled out their child - surely this is not right.

The only problem I would have with putting older children into a nursery for say 12 hours a day is that they hardly get to go outside. Then again I suppose it depends on the actual site the nursery in on but in summer my kids spend most of the day in the garden. I would hate for them to be couped up for most of the day.

Just wanted to add my bit, I have ds age 5 now in reception, was at Nursery, two dd's at Nursery 5 days a week and I feel a certain amount of guilt but their Mother is dead and there is not one person (other than my kids) who would shed a tear if I died tomorrow, what I mean is I have no family/friends support structure. I have my own business to run and Nursery is in my mind by far the best option for my children.

This is DD's (just turned 4) report that I received this week and I am proud of her and I know she enjoys Nursery.

Personal, social and emotional development:
X is thriving in pre school and is a very settled member of the group. X has a good relationship with all of the staff and has developed a strong friendship group. X is always very polite and displays positive behaviours. X is very caring towards her friends and is aware of the class rules.

Communication, language and literacy:
X?s confidence is growing all the time and she is now very happy to talk in front of the whole class. X?s reading skills have really developed over the last few weeks and she recently had her first book with words which she was very pleased with. X communicates well with both children and adults and now uses a louder voice when talking.

Mathematical development:
X has a good knowledge of numbers and is able to count to 20 independently and with encouragement can go further. X can also recognise many numbers between 1 and 20. X counts and uses numbers when playing and can understand basic mathematical language such as big and small. X is learning about patterns and sequences whilst playing with threading beads and peg boards.

Knowledge and understanding of the World:
X is very inquisitive and asks lots of questions and likes to find out the answer. X likes to explore the various objects that are displayed on the interest table each week and joins in with the class discussions about what we are learning. X loves to explore water play and takes care when giving the babies a bath with lots of bubbles.

Creative development:
X is a very creative child and loves to express herself using a variety or media. X produces lovely art work and always concentrates on the task and pays attention to detail. X draws people and faces and likes to explain her creations to others. X likes to spend time at the art table and chooses from a variety of collaging materials to create some mini masterpieces.

Physical development:
X always enjoys garden play and has fun playing some lovely games with xx (her sister) on the slides and in the summer house. X uses all of the outside equipment safely and can climb and jump from small apparatus with ease. X is an expert on the bikes and scooters and likes to ride circuits around the climbing frame with xx not far behind.

Stripey I am actually a SAHM !

My HV advised me to put my son into nursery because I am a full time carer for my severley disabled daughter and I needed a break!

I was advised to put dd into nursery early because of her learning problems and that nursery offered better structure for her.

Lets not forget whether children/babies are put into nursery or not THEY STILL HAVE PARENTS. They are still loved and cuddled.

oh bloody hell I'm quoted in that article! journo researched it on here - not my real name i might add

JMG I would care if you dropped dead tomorrow as would many others.

XXX

I would stick my neck out and say I'd have thought that a 4 month old in nursery is only there because both parents absolutely have to work and have no choice, as mat allowance runs out 4 months in. I think that it's sad to make parents in this difficult situation feel worse than they probably do.

agree totally jimmychoos and also about the fact that it's never fathers that are mentioned in all this but onlymothers

Several posts on this thread mention that us mothers knew the results of this research already.

Really?

Well I for one didn't. I've always been of the opinion that there was no difference between CM, Nanny or nursery care as far as detrimental affects on emotional development are concerned.

Does anyone know how they came to these conclusions? I would be very interest to look at the data from any experiments performed. I too cannot see how this can be a problem with nurseries and yet not with child minders, or mums who have 3 or more kids.

Well I'm afraid I didn't read all the article (got too annnoyed)..... but could this have been written from a more emotive view point?? 'their eyes are begging for interaction, for an adult smile?' is that not just written to evoke an emotional response? Well it did and I think it's extremely sloppy journalism.

I don't need to qualify this by mentioning the amount of cuddles my son gets from the lovely ladies at his nursery, but I will!!

BR

How strange then, that Israeli children who grew up on kibbutz, where group childcare is the norm from the earliest days, have been shown to be among the most co-operative and socially successful, with the lowest proportion of prisoners of any other group.

OMG I'm quoted in the article too - again, not my real name.

this quote pees me off

"The biggest risk factor for insecure attachment is insensitive mothering and the impact of that is significantly increased by any one of three risk factors: more than 10 hours of nursery daycare a week in the first year; a change in the childcare arrangements in the infant's first year, and low-quality daycare."

what about fathers?!