wokring parents

[sunnyjim]

Just wanted to get some opinions here;

there's alot of stuff out at the moment about how women suffer in their careers through having children. I have to admit I felt a bit puzzled by some of the comemtns etc.

I don't understand why you should be given the same promotion prospects as someone else when you havn't been in your job for a year due to mat leave, you work 35 hr weeks and take 20 days unpaid leave a year due to fmaily commitments, the other person has worked f/t for the past 3 years, works 45 hr weeks and never takes sick leave let alone unpaid leave.

surely you get back what you put in?

I think the only way to be taken seriuosly in your job is to take the job seriuosly. If your kids come first and foremost and you would take a day off without a second thought to deal with fmaily matters then your employer will notice and quite honestly i think thats one of the biggest problems working parents face - the fact that some working mums give the rest of us a bad name because they aren't committed to their jobs.

Anyway here are my 'rules' that I'm trying to live by now both me and DH work f/t and we have a 2 yr old.

1. Both our jobs are equally important so we take it in turns to do the nursery run etc. On days when I'm not doing nursery run I get in as early as possible and stay a bit later.
2. Get VERY VERY organised, I don't natter in the staffroom and I don't take 30 minutes for a coffee break. I make sure I get my prep and marking done in free lessons and lunchtimes so I can leave at 3.30 on nursery pick up days. Get a working wardrobe put together and prepack your bag - it honestly does work.
3. Get help; we're getting an au pair in the autumn but prior to that we're trying to find a p/t mothers help to give us some leeway. Send the ironing out, get a cleaner. You can't do it all so see what you can get someone else to do.
4. Pick one or two things that you can do relativly easily but very well in your job to make the point that you are a dedicated employee, for example DH works sunday afternoons going into the office at 3pm and staying until 7pm, this makes up for leaving early two days a week. I offer to do junior choir two lunchtimes a week.
5. Say what you can do and do what you say, never over promise but always keep your promises. You get more respect for saying firmly, I can't attend meetings held after 5pm and I CAN take lunchtime meetings. than saying 'oh maybe i can try and stay' but then be watching the clock or rushing off halfway through to get to school.
6. Don't use your family as an excuse, never apologise or whinge about the children keeping you up all night. At best you get sympathy but waste time you could be spending doing your work so you can leave earlier, at worst you are seen as a whinging female who can't keep her personal life out of the office.
7. take as much interest in your career as you do in your kids, read industry magazines at lunchtime, go on conferences etc
8. Don't waste time and energy feeling guilty about working
9. If you negotiate flexible working patterns understand the impact this may have on colleagues, make sure they aren't left picking up your work.

10. Get flexible, reliable childcare and have a plan B, whether tis granny, a neighbour or an au pair if you both work you ened a back up. What happens when DH is 2 hrs away and I'm at an all day conference and the trains go down? Or DS is ill? backup means you don't have to argue about who takes time off work to deal with the crises!

(all this is assuming you have a career you enjoy and value - its not aimed at anyone who is working purely cos they need some extra cash - totally different set up!)

"We're just forced into a cage like a battery chicken that says - woman equals wants to work part time"

Really? It's that much of a problem? Hands up anyone who has been forced kicking and screaming to work part-time when they would so much rather be full-time? Of course plenty of women want to work full-time, but is it really such a "disgusting" problem that some people prefer part-time?

Tamum, I know what Xenia means to a certain extent - I work full time and I have had "looks" from people when I say I do because they don't expect women to have children and work full time.

But partly that's because I do other things that don't "fit" with working full time - I wear DS2 in a sling loads, he's still bfed at 13m, etc, etc. I realise I'm stereotyping here too - but it's one reason people do double-takes when they find out I work full time.

Yes, I can see that, and I'm really sorry people are reacting like that, but I suppose I was meaning people with older children really. I know lots and lots of people who would like to work part-time but haven't been allowed to, lots who work full-time because they want to or need to, but no-one at all who wants to work full-time but has been forced into working part-time by "society", let alone by threads like this.

No, IME people don't behave as much like the stereotypical "forced to by society" drones as Xenia would have us believe Usually there are Reasons for people's behaviour, again IME.

lol at drones

Still bemuses me that one of SJ's 'suggestions' is to 'get help'. By the time she's paid for decent childcare (let's remember she tells us it has to be it has to be flexible and reliable) plus paid domestic help to help with her ironing and cleaning then how much is left over from her £30k teacher's salary ? Fine if you have the luxury of working for your own satisfaction but what about those women who actually need to contribute to the household ?

I don't think SJ has the answers more than any other woman. I respect anyone's decisions either to work/not work and would not dream of offering such patronising advice. Probably just as well she has no time to talk to her colleages in the staffroom....

There are two points:-

1. Plenty of husbands who assume the wife will work full time even if she'd quite like him to be the part time stay at home father but society and the man in effect pressure her so she doesn't have an effective choice so although he probably doesn't say I'll divorce you if you stay home he may well go on about how it's so much better for children with a mother (never a father) at home etc etc so in effect she is thrust into that role even if she doesn't want it.

1. And secondly my point was more that if all people ever hear from mothers is that they want to work part time they'll assume all of us do and that does those of us working full time down and can lead to the discrimination against mothers - you don't hire them because you know they'll be going on and on about wanting shorter hours whereas your average man won't. So let's have more women lobbying with longer hours and we might redress the balance better.

An association for mothers who want to spend less time with their children and more time at work and to lobby for men doing 50% or more at home.

That's a lot of assumptions!

A lot of women DO want to work part though, Xenia.

But I agree that it's always talked about as being "the woman" who is selfish for working, for not being there for her children, etc, etc. There are plenty of men out there who work five days a week and have BRILLIANT relationships with their children (DH is one) - and nobody berates them or "makes them feel guilty" for it.

I agree to the extent that I absolutely do want to work; and probably do want to work the number of days that I do; and that the assumption that I 'really' want to be a SAHM makes me bridle.

I am, however, continually surprised by the realisation that in fact I do want to spend some of my otherwise working week with my chidren. I mean that, quite seriously. I never thought I would.

But I remain comp;letely resentful of the idea that my domestic commitments make me unfit to do my day job. And I am not going to buy into an idea of 'real work' which equals 24/7 because quite apart from anything else I'm deeply politically opposed to the idea of selling my soul to the boss.

if i worked full time now i'd pick up £20 extra a week. (childcare already included in this figure). (currently i work just enough hours to not claim is). 40 hours a week would gain me £20. £4 of that would be used on bus fare.

is a gain of £16 a week really worth sending my dd to nursery for two extra days, being knackered and grumpy every night, not getting the housework done, etc etc...no it isnt.

When I was full-time, before I had children, I employed women of childbearing age and I did promote a couple of part-timers over full timers. Why? Because they were better at their jobs, and this had nothing to do with the number of hours they spent at their desks or the flexibility they required to meet childcare commitments.

The slight inconvenience of them being absent at the occasional meeting was far, far outweighed by the fact that the work they did was of a higher quality than the other members of the team at the time. I would rather have 3 days of a good person who can do the job than 5 days of someone whose output would constantly have to be monitored and reviewed.

I have known many full time men go for long periods of sick leave and I have always been aware that the world still goes round when one person in a team is absent. Things go on, and everyone, in my experience, has their moment where they need the team to support them and pick up something extra to get over that time. Whether it is a broken leg, a parent going into care, a maternity leave or a stress-related absence.

I think I live in the real world, and I do not expect people to be automatons. Life is not just about work, and if you make it your be-all and end-all I think you take a risk that one day (perhaps when you are having your 'weak moment') someone will take it all away and you will be left with nothing.

SJ got a lot of responses because of the jaw-droppingly patronising nature of her lessons to grandmothers on the sucking of eggs. I think that in particular the advice to 'get very very organised' made me laugh. Really? I just tend to roll out of bed and expect everyone to get themselves sorted and my job to do itself . Been there, done that, with more kids, for more years and for longer hours (was ft until my third was born). Yes, if a mother rolls up for work does f* all apart from talk about her kids, is unreliable and incompetent, ITA that she is taking the piss and deserves nothing in return. But if she is dedicated, good at her job and makes damn sure that no-one else suffers or has an increased burden because of her pt status then why the hell shouldn't she expect promotion? Saying otherwise is just pointless presenteeism bums on seats for 40 plus hours a week does not mean more/better work. I work at home much of the time and I'd challenge anyone who works with me to tell me that I don't more than deserve my salary and any payrise I get.

Sunnyjim - "I don't look down on part-timers, why should I? I get annoyed by anyone who assumes they can work less and recieve the SAME as people working harder and/or longer"

What are you on?

You don't look down on them but you get annoyed. So annoyed that you make patronising and ignorant comments! You are obviously working so hard (not being ill or taking time off) that you don't appear to have time to think (straight)!

I think it may be sour grapes on Sunnijim part.

Maybe she has been overlooked for promotion ( and by her opinions and attitude you can see why ) and someone who works 'less hours' has been promoted over her.

I do hope you keep your opinions to yourself in the work place otherwise I can see why you dont natter in the staffroom as no one wants to speak to you !

It does sound like sour grapes. Any boss that promotes someone over and above someone who is better, works harder, is more suitable or whatever, seriously needs his head read.

That's not to say that a part time worker doesnt meet all the above criteria nor should it.

A part time worker can give 110% to a job - in fact, often 200% (part time workers are often expected to do the same volume of work in less hours, and often without a break unlike their full time counterparts).

To infer that a part time worker is less deserving than a full time worker because they put less hours in is extremely short sighted, discriminatory, and IMVHO - totally lacking the basic qualities required to move on in a career. After all, moving on usually means managing people - and if you think the above you arent a people person....

Have to say though that this is most refreshing . Usually it's when SAHMs or their partners imply that I'm a failure as a mother because I go out to work (or not a 'real woman' as I seem to remember reading somewhere on MN recently....) that i get irritated. Quite a interesting change to feel under attack from the other side of the argument for not doing the working bit properly....

You can't win sometimes whatever you do. The only people never criticised for staying at home, working part time or full time are fathers. And it's usually mothers criticising other mothers too.

There is some validity for some jobs in the argument that if you want to be the leading XYZ in England you will probably be working 50% more hours than even the normal full time worker but many part timers don't aspire to those big jobs as it were.

incy:
By the time she's paid for decent childcare (let's remember she tells us it has to be it has to be flexible and reliable) plus paid domestic help to help with her ironing and cleaning then how much is left over from her £30k teacher's salary ? Fine if you have the luxury of working for your own satisfaction but what about those women who actually need to contribute to the household ?

I didn't say I paid for all of those things, my point was that as a parent with paiid employemnt you could make certian choices about getting in some help.

DS goes to a local nursery at £110 a week f/t
We want to make sure he doesn't have to be at nursery 8am - 5.30pm five days a week and we also want a few hours of housework/ babysitting a week so we can get some adult time. So we are finding a foriegn student to come live in our spare room and get £50/week pocket money for doing the nursery pick up run at 3.30pm each day etc.
So we spend £160 a week on childcare and household help. DS goes to nursery less during the summer hols so we pay £8k maximum a year.
Because we have a third adult in the house we get that flexibility in childcare - if DS comes down with a temperature at nursery there is an au pair who can be called to pick him up and take care of him until me or Dh can get home from work to take over.

(yes i know there are alot of people who can't afford £8k a year with two parents working f/t - that sucks it really does.)

re: being patronising
my rules were the rules for ME and OUR household. Every day on here someone posts tips and ideas about how they manage being a parent. I'm sure alot of it is repeated and alot of it is simple stuff really, just because you already have your own rules or use the same ones I do - why does that mean I can't post them again?

"Have you been looked over for promotion recently then sunnyjim - is this what it is all about."
No, sorry to dissapoint.

"It is not about the quantity of work you put in , its the quality"
I think I already posted about how in most fields of work it is quality AND quantity - see my point about students producing course work.

"No-one at all who wants to work full-time but has been forced into working part-time by "society", let alone by threads like this"

actually its precisly society and thread like this which put the pressure onto women to work part-time. This is where our society - the society which comments upon mothers gathers and discusses issues to do with work and parenthood.
No-one is likely to say it was that ONE thread that made me feel that I wasn't being a good mother unless i worked p/t. But if the vast majority of threads, media pieces and conversations you see or hear are based on an assumption that f/t work = bad mothering, or that every woman really wants to be able to spend more time with her kids; then thats what you will start to feel (or feel pressured into) yourself.

And here's one person to put the lie to that 'no-one at all' I want to work f/t, I enjoy working, I enjoy working f/t. After the birth of DS I intended to go back to work f/t when he was 6 months old. I changed my mind - why? at least part of the reason was the enourmous pressure I felt from the various mums meeting places and society at large to work p/t. When I discussed going back to work f/t no-one ever said anythign postitive about it. I was told 'you must be worried about going back now you have a child' 'oh what a shame don't they offer p/t working'. If I said I was working flexi-time the answer was 'oh of course you want to spend as much time as possible with DS'.
Strangly No-one EVER made these comments to DH!

Lots of awful sexist assumptions all ov erhte place that women only want to work part time. Something needs to be done about it. Some sort of PR - these women work full time and have under 5s and they love it. Or x% of working women work full time and wouldn't have it any other way etc etc

See also the thread " Am I being unreasonable? :Should my DH high salary exclude him from doing jobs at home" and the advantages of working full time - my 20 point list.