wokring parents

[sunnyjim]

Just wanted to get some opinions here;

there's alot of stuff out at the moment about how women suffer in their careers through having children. I have to admit I felt a bit puzzled by some of the comemtns etc.

I don't understand why you should be given the same promotion prospects as someone else when you havn't been in your job for a year due to mat leave, you work 35 hr weeks and take 20 days unpaid leave a year due to fmaily commitments, the other person has worked f/t for the past 3 years, works 45 hr weeks and never takes sick leave let alone unpaid leave.

surely you get back what you put in?

I think the only way to be taken seriuosly in your job is to take the job seriuosly. If your kids come first and foremost and you would take a day off without a second thought to deal with fmaily matters then your employer will notice and quite honestly i think thats one of the biggest problems working parents face - the fact that some working mums give the rest of us a bad name because they aren't committed to their jobs.

Anyway here are my 'rules' that I'm trying to live by now both me and DH work f/t and we have a 2 yr old.

1. Both our jobs are equally important so we take it in turns to do the nursery run etc. On days when I'm not doing nursery run I get in as early as possible and stay a bit later.
2. Get VERY VERY organised, I don't natter in the staffroom and I don't take 30 minutes for a coffee break. I make sure I get my prep and marking done in free lessons and lunchtimes so I can leave at 3.30 on nursery pick up days. Get a working wardrobe put together and prepack your bag - it honestly does work.
3. Get help; we're getting an au pair in the autumn but prior to that we're trying to find a p/t mothers help to give us some leeway. Send the ironing out, get a cleaner. You can't do it all so see what you can get someone else to do.
4. Pick one or two things that you can do relativly easily but very well in your job to make the point that you are a dedicated employee, for example DH works sunday afternoons going into the office at 3pm and staying until 7pm, this makes up for leaving early two days a week. I offer to do junior choir two lunchtimes a week.
5. Say what you can do and do what you say, never over promise but always keep your promises. You get more respect for saying firmly, I can't attend meetings held after 5pm and I CAN take lunchtime meetings. than saying 'oh maybe i can try and stay' but then be watching the clock or rushing off halfway through to get to school.
6. Don't use your family as an excuse, never apologise or whinge about the children keeping you up all night. At best you get sympathy but waste time you could be spending doing your work so you can leave earlier, at worst you are seen as a whinging female who can't keep her personal life out of the office.
7. take as much interest in your career as you do in your kids, read industry magazines at lunchtime, go on conferences etc
8. Don't waste time and energy feeling guilty about working
9. If you negotiate flexible working patterns understand the impact this may have on colleagues, make sure they aren't left picking up your work.

10. Get flexible, reliable childcare and have a plan B, whether tis granny, a neighbour or an au pair if you both work you ened a back up. What happens when DH is 2 hrs away and I'm at an all day conference and the trains go down? Or DS is ill? backup means you don't have to argue about who takes time off work to deal with the crises!

(all this is assuming you have a career you enjoy and value - its not aimed at anyone who is working purely cos they need some extra cash - totally different set up!)

blimey some harsh words in here.
I have just started working full time again three months now, I went back to work part time 3 and sometimes 4 days a week when dd was five months old but she is three now and full time is a nescessity. doesnt matter how much I earn because I earn lot les than £30k, its how much I don't earn that determines me working or not

what the employer wants/thinks has never been that high on my list of priorities tbh - of course, it has to be taken into consideration but ultimately, as long as you are capable of doing the job and are getting paid for it, who really gives a shit.

There's only one person who looks out for you and that's you , it's certainly not always going to be your employer.

that was to sunnyjim btw

just don't see why you are worrying so much about the employer unless you are one yourself

and Xenia, how part time could be the 'worst of all worlds' I don't know - if it means you get to earn a salary and spend some more time with your kids, I can hardly see how that could be a bad thing.

but sj, your op seems to suggest that a working mother who delivers at work & is as good as a reliable male will be given the same possibilities. unfortunately that isn't so. i work 45 + hours a week, do over & above my share, get good reuslts, run clubs, bring in cakes for a cake stall, only took 4 months maternity leave & what do i get?
bullying by management to work during my lunch break & holidays (which i already do) turned down for promotion, quite blatantly in favour of men,! I moan, i didn't CHOOSE to be left behind, the men made the choice for me! so, for now dd comes first, i am marginally reducing my hours from sep, to spend more itme with her, and once she is older i shall go for a 'proper' career in a different work place. and on the very rare days when dd is ill, dh takes time off to look after her because his firm are more parent friendly. and as for the point about get backup, it simply DOES NOT exist for some people.

i think the argument here is not whether working mums should deliver the committment expected by the terms of their contract (whatever level they're working at) but that everyone should. in return, employers should benefit those who honour their commitment. unfortunately, there are still too bosses, male or female, who simply don't see this & just like giving jobs to the boys.

yes, a sympathetic employer is worth their weight in gold - one of the companies I worked for was very family friendly and because of the way they treated me, I was an incredibly loyal and hard working employee for them.

It works both ways.

i successfully sued someone who thought just like xenia and sunnyjim. thats why we have these laws in place, and thank goodness we do. they are there for a reason.

personally i have no problem with anyone who wants a "career" as opposed to a "job". i dont think its fair to assume that women with "jobs" hate the job but do it anyway, and that women with "careers" enjoy what they do. its possible to hate the career that you have chosen and also to like the job you do. it works both ways.

you cant have one rule for some and not others. full time career women and part time mothers with jobs (or any kind of combination) should be treated equally and fairly.

some people dont have the education or the opportunity to be high up the ladder, some people dont want to, some people do. it matters not. one rule for all. if you work hard and dont take the piss you should have as much right as the next person.

fox because part time helps engrains sexist roles at home (given it's usually women who do it so it's politically unacceptable to me) and women end up doing most childfen things and housework, often more than proportionately they ought to and their career is sidelined.

No one has any legal obligation to please an employer but those who succeed and do well tend to know that's a wise thing to do and then often in effect become the employer. What is important is that people don't have the worng idea - that they can not often be available at work in jobs where that matters and think that won't matter - I can still be well regarded because of course they won't in many jobs that do require an element of presenteeism. I never know when something will arise relating to work. I am virtually always available and contactable and because of that I get more business and do better. It's common sense that that will be so.

But usually those who sue commit career suicide in proper important jobs, even that black policeman who sued hasn't got his latest promotion.

What you don't want is a legal action but that you stun everyone with your brilliance at work that you move swiftly to the top. It's quite hard to do that if you're hardly ever there.

part time working is just starting to become more common amongst men though - I know quite a few now working flexi hours or part time hours (as opposed to 5 years ago when I hardly knew any). Of course, all this is dictated largely by salary and if the man is getting paid more, then often it means it's not practical for him to go part time.

Of course it's wise to please your employer (and I'm lucky enough to have, mainly, been in the position where I've always had a good relationship with my employers) but I think it's sad to think you need to be on call for work ALL the time.

I know you are in a job which involves working for clients (therefore, the more work you do, the more money you earn for the company) so your situation is slightly different to most. I would also say that the people willing to give up their life for work give those trying to create a balance a bad name (rather than the other way round).

i get the impression, xenia that you see this as a strong feminist/equality issue, and i think you're right. however, there is a problem that even when a woman is as good, or even better, than her male colleagues (which i'm convinced i am) that they still get sidelined. your earlier poin that you need to get more women in management is great, but i don't think it should be ablout male/female. it should just be that those who are good at their jobs are rewarded, and those who aren't should go. people who are ok, continue to drift along. unfortunately this just isn't true. when i think of the attitudes at my work place i actually start shaking with rage. before i had dd it never occurred to me that i would be so discriminated against,. i can't write everything here as i am worried that i could be identified in rl & that would be unprofessional.
suffice it to say, that i have re-evaluated my priorities. with another 30 years of my working life ahead of me i've decided to 'coast' (by which i mean fulfilling my contract beyond 100%, but not push hard for promotions etc) until dd is older. she is far more appreciative of my efforts, and has at least leanrt to say thank you.

my point exactly: "part time ingrains sexism"...only the sexist think that way!

and i'd rather sue and know that the right thing was done, than be bullied and keep quiet. if i had a "career" and sueing killed it, it would be worth it. i didnt sue for money, i sued because no employer should be allowed to treat women the way they treated me.

I am so grateful to all those women who have brought cases where the law is broken. I wouldn';t want to suggest otherwise and I see the BA pilot who flew part time hours has won a BA concession that will benefit other male and female pilots who work part time.

I am just concerned some women think in the real world you can work part time and still be there to clinch that deal, to wrest that brilliant piece of work from other eager colleagues clamouring to get it etc etc. If you're not there as much you generally won't do as well and that's not necessarily the employer's fault.

Do read Motherood and pie charts about "mamisma" in today's FT.
www.ft.com/cms/s/7cba5b56-ceac-11db-b5c8-000b5df10621.html

Anecdotal survey in the article found some of the usual problems/damage done to children where their mothers don't work and make their children "their all" - the "stalker mom", the mothers who are overbearing, those who dictate homework assignments. I have never read a single bit of GCSE coursework of any of the three children now at university. The children of the working mothers as teenagers are grateful of the personal space and proud of their mothers and learn skills from them.

Part time working does not ingrain sexism at home. If women want to spend time bringing up children themselves, whilst working, and continuing to carve out a career - that doesnt mean they have to make compromises at home or anywhere else.

You seem to be giving licence to men to be sexist, because its a womans fault for choosing to work part time, whilst also dismissing the importance of a family choosing to bring up children largely by themselves - not just by the nanny/au pair.

And sexism doesnt begin the moment a woman gets pregnant either.....

I realise we may not have a typical relationship, but DH works ft, I work 25 hrs pw, however DH does far far more around the house than I do (I get more involved in the boys' activities).

I don't miss any meetings I'm required to attend, or any deadlines - because both my manager and myself are flexible. I'm in the office each working day, apart from when on leave (should I forego my leave too??) and where necessary I will go in early or work late. My manager stipulated my core hours when I started with his team, but we both know that where necessary, if possible, I can and do go in early and/or work late, but will tell him if it's not possible and he respects that.

One of our top managers arranged a meeting which I was required to attend recently, and SHE delayed the meeting until after half-term because she knew I'd got childcare commitments...whereas I offered to go in during half-term to avoid the delay. Communication, negotiation and flexibility on both sides.

I got promoted from a part-time position, into my current part-time position. Also got upgraded on our recent job evaluation. Inhouse I can't get on to a higher grade unless I change direction, something I'm not interested in (and which would require two years heavy training at a much reduced rate).

oh xenia, i wish we could do a reality show life swap. in mn terms im probably the lowest you can get (apart from trolls).

it would be an interesting program im sure.

have been a single parent for ten years or so. have raised my kids with no help from their absent parent whatsoever, also decided not to have other people - childminders or the like - do it for me. meant taking a drastic cut as have only worked part time on a very low income. ended up doing many crap jobs other people would not entertain. dont know of anyone who took a sexist view of this one way or the other. kids seem to have survived it well enough - all are far brighter than myself - with my eldest in uni. have helped with homework, never missed parents evenings, always around when needed etc. just hope they dont have an image of me being a loser as i gave up a career in engineering to do it.

I don't even have children but I am a nit confused about the idea of doing stuff in your free time or moving the day around (getting in early for example) to make things easier.

Many people work shifts, you can't decide to get in at 6am if you start at 7am. I am training to be a nurse and when I do have children I am not sure how I will manage with childcare because my partner works shifts as well.

I will probably get shouted at for posting this but do find the idea that everyone has some flexibility of when they start/finish or even do their work rather laughable.

Smurf, just depends on the job. There are a huge load of jobs where you get paid loads and the deal is that in return you're available. Mothers and fathers accept that as do single people. Those who don't don't take those jobs. If I talk to my children at univesrity about these things all those girls (and boys) are very clued up on this stuff - they know the friend starting in investment banking on £60k (he's very rare and very good) has entirely as he expected been working weekends often to 5am and getting 2 hours sleep and going back in. Others are working much shorter hours and hardly able to buy their grocery shopping on a new graduate's salary.

For the extra money you accept that deal. If you love the work as I do it's a complete bonus and I am very lucky. Some parents might think it's a pact with the devil but I'm prepared to be work through the night for clients if they need it because that's how things operate in that area (and I don't do it often) and you're well rewarded for it. In other jobs where the pay is poor you'd be an idiot to work years of unpaid over time and neglect your children. My children are old enough to understand the deal and the more you earn the better provision you can make for them anyway. That's market forces. The best nannies get the highest salaries and the more you earn and more senior you are the more you can control and choose your hours so either you stay at the bottom, work part time or not at all and have lots of time with children or you try to rise to the top so you can obtain the same things. Worst of all is low pay in part time work with no control and little money in my view.

Sexism... part time work equals a sexist modeal at home only because more women than men do it, surprise surprise. If equal numbers did I would withdraw my sexist comment. The fact women think they choose it is just their conditioning. It's not a real choice at all. I'm not sure they even choose time after time to marry men who earn more. Again it's subtle conditioning in this society and too prevalent to be chance.

rofl.

So now I'm too thick to realise I'm being conditioned rather than making choices.

Priceless.

Xenia - don't you think that there is a major difference between careers like yours (and mine) where you are selling your brain power and much of your work is done on your own (and if you are good at your work you can do it very quickly) and people who work in organisations where always being present at a particular time of day or time of the week (ie teaching, nursing) is critical?

My partner works in an office but he's the boss and he does exactly the hours he needs to get the job done and no more. As a result we see a lot of him. None of the people who work for him have his flexibility or pay... but he's better in his field than them.

We can't all be the boss or have "cerebral" jobs, though I'm very glad I chose (and was able to choose) that path myself.

LOL at "less cerebral".

Presumably medicine would fall into that category too - as you would have to be available at certain times?

true

beckybrastraps - I didn't say "less cerebral" and that's not what I meant.

All jobs require presence at certain times beyond our control. Doctors have consultation times but they also spend plenty of time reading and thinking about their speciality, updating their skills, preparing for surgery etc. It's not all desk bound.