Anyone been medically retired? Need some advice please :( (sorry it's long)

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Not sure if this is the best board for this - I'll ask to move it if there's somewhere better. I have NCed for obvious reasons and am being a little vague on the specifics, sorry - hopefully what I have said is clear enough, though.

I have been ill for a few years with an illness that is unpredictable/variable. It is also an 'invisible disability' and to some extent the symptoms are subjective... not like a broken leg or something where it's obvious, IYSWIM. I'm just saying that as it does explain why my employers did take a while to accept the diagnosis, there was a lot of misunderstanding about what the illness actually does (why they couldn't just google it, I don't know...). I have also been asked to provide more recent proof of my illness as the diagnosis was a few years ago and that's not recent enough apparently. Even though said diagnosis has not changed.

Anyway, I came pretty close to getting medically retired a couple of years ago because my attendance was awful. I was in a horrendous state emotionally because of this obviously - not least because I was the sole earner at that time. We eventually got around it by reducing my hours to the bare minimum, and allowing some Reasonable Adjustments to my duties which ATOS helped them figure out (they accepted that my condition counts as a disability). This has helped - my job is like retail, it involves some desk work but can be very physical too, lots of lifting and being on my feet a lot. It actually helped so much that as well as my attendance improving hugely, I didn't bother reapplying for DLA (I had HRM and MRC for 1 year) - I REALLY regret this now, as in hindsight the good phase was just that - a phase. :(

Anyway, as hinted above, I am now not well again. I've gone back after several weeks off and I am no better. I'm really, really thinking that I just can't do it any more, TBH. I have been told that there aren't really any more RAs they can make - quite understandably, they say that any more allowances like being relieved from certain (very physical) duties would basically mean I'm no longer fulfilling the role I was hired for. We explored redeployment but there aren't any suitable options.

I have no life now. I do my job and I'm in pain after every shift even when I'm in a good phase. On my days off I fear doing anything that will mess up the next shift (because I'll be in more pain, even if not enough to phone in sick - I grin and bear it A LOT). I'm just starting to feel like it's not worth it (not least because I now only make about £100-150 a month after childcare) given the amount of pain and stress it causes. Even though I do actually enjoy the job, I also have depression and anxiety and my work does have a negative impact on that (not vice versa - my performance doesn't suffer, I'm very careful about that) as well as positive.

Sorry I'll try and get to the point now... Although nobody's mentioned it out loud yet (we have started 'procedures' but it's still at the monitoring/target setting phase), I have come to the conclusion that now, if they actually just say they can't employ me anymore, I'll just accept it. Not like if it had happened a couple of years ago when I would've been devastated and tried to fight it. I'll just say ok then, fair enough. I never thought I'd feel like this. But my friends - especially those who've had friends with similar illnesses - are absolutely adamant that I must not just resign, as I would be screwed. So I'll keep going obviously.

But I have no idea what actually happens, which is why I've posted this. My concern is financial (I have a good network of friends now and some occupational therapy inspired hobbies, and I'm not worried about becoming isolated or feeling I lack purpose, which certainly would've happened before). DH earns below the average wage, and with mine we've been just above the threshold for most benefits and TBH it's been a massive struggle financially. I had to bite the bullet and start tutoring to bring in a tiny amount of extra cash (I've got 1 pupil but a few more potentials) - which of course adds another layer of complication. It's obviously completely different dragging my aching body on the bus to work (via childcare) and doing a physical job for several hours, to having a child sit at my table for half an hour in my own home... but if I got medically retired, would I have to give that up too? I really enjoy it and it's had a really good effect on my mental state.

What a mess (both the situation and this post!). Thank you for reading.

You really need to speak to your employer as the specifics of medical retirement for your scheme will be such that strangers can't advise.

I hope it is good news.

Oh I see, thanks

I meant more with benefits and that sort of thing really - apparently if I just quit then there wouldn't be any help at all. But I have no idea. I hate relying on them but I don't feel like I have a choice anymore.

DH was actually medically retired through injury, but that was pretty simple as he stopped work, and when sick pay ran out he got ESA. But then everything you hear on the news these days about people who are really ill getting refused help...

Do you have a pension with a clause for medical retirement?

I don't have a pension I didn't opt in as we couldn't even spare that much money when I started, and then when I got ill I felt it too risky in case I was pushed out. Stupid in hindsight.

In that case, you're not asking if you can be medically retired. You're talking about being dismissed due to capability-I.e. Because you are no longer capable of doing the role you were hired for.
It's worth noting that the depression and anxiety you describe may also be considered an additional disability.
If they have already made all the reasonable adjustments they can (and all the adjustments you can think of) and you still can't manage, then you need to either speak to your manager, advise of your difficulties, ask to be reffered to occupational health and let them move you towards dismissal that way.
The alternative is to go to your Dr, get signed off as sick and allow them to use the absence management policy to move you towards dismissal. Whilst off sick, you should get statutory sick pay for up to 28 weeks. Once this time is up, you can then claim Esa.

There is no reason you would have to give up the tutoring, although you should disclose any earnings from this to the job centre.
Hth.

Oh, I didn't actually realise there was a difference! I hope that wouldn't affect things even more financially (I'm a bit of an ignoramus when it comes to all this stuff... didn't think I'd have to worry about it before I'm even 30!)

Is ESA automatic? Or isn't that the thing you get assessed for. We had a huge amount of stress with DH, he had to go to tribunal (which lasted about 15mins as the assessor could immediately see what points he would score). I didn't realise sick pay lasted that long - I think when I was off for longer the first time I went at least down to company sick pay, but haven't got to that point this time round (as until this relapse my attendance was really good so haven't reached the limit... Yet)

In terms of adjustments, my manager did ask if there's anything else I can think of - and she really meant it. But I know the only other things that would help me are basically taking the piss TBH - the only thing left would be to absolve me of 2 or 3 tasks that are particularly strenuous; they are a big part of the job description though. I don't do them on every shift but they are important and to give me more of the easier stuff would be unfair on my colleagues.

When I got signed off this summer the dr did actually want to sign me off for another couple of months :( I felt the pressure to return though but I've decided I need to be more aware of my limits now. I realised how often I put a brave face on and it's not doing me any favours.

Thank you for your advice

Does being dismissed due to capability count as being fired? Hoping that's a stupid question

Not an expert in terms of Esa, but would imagine you would need to be assessed for it. As I understand it, tribunals are not always necessary but it is a possibility.

It would technically count as being sacked in as much as you would no longer have a job.

Yes, being dismissed because you're unable to do your job due to ill health is a dismissal. Medical retirement is when your pension scheme allows you to retire early (usually with reduced reductions to your pension) due to the fact you are too ill to work again. Even if you were in your pension scheme, it's incredibly rare to be granted at your age, so hopefully not something to kick yourself over.

I'm afraid I don't know about benefits.

Ohhhh I see. Well I certainly hope I will be able to work again one day! But in the meantime I would rather just do the tutoring as it can be flexible and is very gentle. DH is looking for a better job as he's very underpaid ATM.

My only worry regarding the technically-being-fired thing was that I'd heard some benefits aren't awarded if you either quit your job or get fired. That might just be JSA though which presumably wouldn't be relevant anyway. But in the sense of HB (which we did have to partly rely on before I got my job in the first place, although DH's wages were lower then) I'd be worried that we wouldn't be awarded it this time. Some people have said that if I had to give up work then benefits would increase anyway but I am scared to depend on that IYSWIM.

I might ask about a CAB appt although ironically it's one of the many things I don't feel well enough to manage on my precious days off. But it would be helpful I think.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that DH's job is at risk ATM (he was looking around before this, though, it's a horrible job) so I feel like I need to keep pushing myself. Every day I am feeling worse TBH.

I had a good chat to a couple of colleagues (who will keep it between us obviously, they're good friends) and they've both said I should chat to the GP too.

Presumably if I went off sick longer term it would still take a while before they got to dismissal but I guess it depends on policy - I'll have to ask if they can give me a copy as I haven't read it since the last time this happened.

They have said they'll refer me back to ATOS, who do the occ health stuff for us, but they aren't going to do that until I've had a final test I've been referred for. I've not heard anything about that test though so no idea when it'll be.

HB doesn't take into account why you need it, only your income.

Ah, thanks lougle so I can at least figure on that. We are only slightly above the minimum threshold now so would be below it without my wages.

In other news, our housing application was up for renewal (we've been on Band B, due to 'overcrowding', for 3 years) and we have been advised to also apply on medical grounds now (I'd not bothered before as I'm not getting PIP etc). So we are getting another form which may mean we can move up. This would really help financially as well as physically (keep getting stuck on the stairs and stuff on my worst days, although it's incredibly unlikely we would get a bungalow) so fingers crossed.

I've realised that for a while I would be worse off if I go on sick leave long term as we are contracted to childcare with a notice term of 1 month.

I'm seeing the GP on Monday so I will have a proper conversation with them and try and figure out what to do. I had a couple of days feeling ok at work, and I was really happy. It's frustrating, I DO like my job and enjoy it :( but yet another shift yesterday where I had a huge 'crash' and I feel like I'm back to square one.

ESA is assessed and can take a while for it to happen.

That makes sense. I think when DH got it he went onto it and then they said he'd need to pay it all back because he wasn't entitled to it (but then he had the assessment and it was fine). It's a minefield.

I am really close to calling in sick tomorrow, I told myself I'd be honest from now on and not put a brave face on but it's proving harder than I thought even though I'm in a ridiculous amount of pain today.

I had a good talk with my family support worker and even she says it sounds like I'd be better off not working. I hate that it's come to this. (sorry to keep going on about it... hard to discuss this IRL)

Right.
First of all, I would get a PIP claim in asap. How does your health compare to what it was like in the past when you were getting DLA? If you were getting HRM then your walking must have been seriously affected. Do you use any mobility aids/a chair now?
These are the points descriptors for PIP www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-points-system
Remember that PIP is a functional benefit (it depends on how your disability affects your life) and things have to be done safely, reliably, to a reasonable standard, in a timely fashion and as often as needed in order to count-and for at least 50% of the time. You also want to send as much medical info as possible. Do you currently see a consultant? A letter from them would be helpful, but make it as functional as possible.
Secondly, ESA. For ESA you have to be signed off work and put in a claim. For the first bit you have to put in medical certificates and eventually you will be sent a form that allows you to explain how your disability affects you. You might be called for a medical. ESA can take a while to sort out but you will be paid while they're sorting it out. People who claim PIP/DLA are entitled to more money so it's worth putting in a PIP claim as quickly as possible as they can also take a while to sort out-but any extra money will be backdated. These are the descriptors for ESA www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/employment-and-support-allowance/esa-glossary/1354-work-related-activity-group-descriptors
As you can see, having problems with walking is enough to get you through the medical.
These are the support group descriptors
www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/employment-and-support-allowance/esa-glossary/1353-support-group-descriptors
Again, if you struggle to walk or lift things these might be helpful.
Housing benefit is done on income alone.
Good luck and shout if you need any help

Thank you rainbow

I've had a quick go on the online PIP test, not sure about distances for the mobility element (the walking itself is often ok - not always admittedly - but the standing upright is very hard due to dizziness), but scored 20 on the daily living bit going on my worst symptoms. Our family support worker was nudging me today to start the claim too (she is also going to try to refer me to 'adult outreach' whatever that means)

I am also hopefully going to be assessed for autistic spectrum which might go some way with explaining my issues with understanding/communicating (mainly verbal/auditory) although that is also made worse by the 'brain fog' I get with the physical illness (god I'm a mess aren't I! )

I do have a specialist for one of the two physical conditions but he's not agreed with the diagnosis of it yet (basically there's a simple test for it, but it was done wrong when I had it before my appt with him) and I'm still waiting for the appt for the full test. For my other condition I have the letters and stuff from when I was first diagnosed in 2012 but it was a specialist clinic very far away and once I used my treatment package (set of 30 sessions) I was discharged.

Also got over 40pts on the ESA thing so it says I would be in the work related group. But again that is going on my absolute worst day.

Have you noticed, for PIP it's " stand and then walk" ie if you can't reliably and safely stand up then that doesn't count as being able to walk. That might help.
For ESA it's mobilise with a manual chair, but, I would suspect that with a score of 40 you would be fine anyway.
Remember to send as much evidence as possible, even a "diary in the life of"-it really helps.

You also need to look at the descriptions of 'activities' under the headlines swell as just the headlines IYSWIM as that is what they seem to assess against

You also need to look at PIP and ESA separately. They are two different entities with different criteria.

You can't fill it in based on your worst day. It has to be average. You risk a fraudulent claim otherwise.

The advice used to be to use your worst day but it's not now. For both ESA and PIP, you need to describe what you can do on average, and you can add details of how it affects you on a bad day.

That's why I didn't renew my DLA claim, One. I reduced my hours at work and started to have more 'ok' days and less 'worst' days, so I felt I would be at risk of people thinking I was making it up. I'd not realised the advice had changed.

I have no clue how to work out average though, when it's so variable? And it's not a linear scale either IYSWIM, because there are a few different elements that all have their own variations (pain/fatigue/dizziness/cognitive impairment).

I do sympathise. I have fibromyalgia which is pretty up and down! It's difficult.

I see a lot of the prosecutions for this kind of thing through work, though, and it's really sad when it's someone who wasn't blatantly defrauding the system, but perhaps said they couldn't walk easily but improved a bit, or gave the impression their confusion is worse than it is.

I think the CAB advice is to rank yourself out of 7, so if you can't walk 2 days out of 7, on an average day you can. If you can't walk 5/7, you can. A diary might help with that.

That's a good method, thank you. I'd be so scared of people thinking I was trying to get more money deliberately, because I don't want to do that.

At the moment the average is much much worse because I've been at work. But if I was off sick, it would be less because I wouldn't be exerting myself. So I probably wouldn't get enough points then. If that makes sense.

For example when I was off for a month, I was starting to manage doing stuff like cooking, but now I'm back at work I can't do it. 4 stupid little hours completely fuck up everything.

(end rant)

For PIP, it's about how much you can manage 50% of the time. If you can't manage it for 50% of the time or more then you can't do it. This is worked out over a year which allows you to have good patches and bad patches. For example, if you can cook the odd meal without help but mostly you need help you still can't cook without assistance, iyswim. For PIP, aids and appliances (eg pre chopped veg, perching stools, electric tin openers) count towards points as well.
For ESA it's worked out based on reliability-but effectively, as it's work based, activities are supposed to be manageable pretty much every day. For example, if you can't lift a box every day, or at least most days, then you can't do it and would score points. For example, if someone could manage to mobilise in a manual chair for 1 day but it left them bed bound with exhaustion the next then they wouldn't be counted as able to do it.

Don't worry about fraud, most disabled people underplay the issues that they have rather than over egging them. it really is worth making a claim.