Should I sack an employee?

[meanboss]

I am a regular poster but changed name for this as feel horrid about it but would really like some advice. I run a company with 15 employees, 3 of whom are at a senior level and do the same job as myself, which involves dealing with the public. One of these, a woman same age as myself, startd in jan this year. She is a nightmare to work with. People below her have no confidence in her judgement and she is not communicating with her clients well and they are asking to see myself or another senior, to get a second opinion. The whole workplace is chaotic when she is around and she has a really loud laugh which happens all the time and completely inappropriately, even if she is having a disagreement with a client or telling them bad news-very odd. On the other hand, she has been good for turnover because she runs people up huge bills by not being able to work logically.But I hate to do this to people and have actually taken things off their bills and we have paid the costs.
So.. Do I sack her?-legally could but am crap boss and cant bear thought of doing it.
Or Lie- say need to make her redundant-could manage for a while with no replacement
Or just let things drift on-financially ok in short term, but not giving levels of service I want to provide and driving other staff mad (and me)
Please help-any volunteers to do the deed also welcome

Oh, this is why I could never be a boss. No use sorry.

it appears she msay not be professional and cost effective in practice i work in the NHS as a nurse and we must comform to this as in any job.

but u do need proof and record and statements off others as well as follow any employee rights before sacking 1st

I volunteer to do the deed, please, i need some excitment in my life

Have you explained exactly what you expect of her, helped her to achieve the changes and let her know where she's still failing? (And documented this of course).
Worthwhile doing to either improve the situation or to cover yourself against unfair dismissal (sp?).
All the best - nothing worse than someone who disrupts a whole team.

Oh I've been there. Have just had nightmare with new starter. Turns out the department she came from didn't give us crucial information along the lines of 'we'd never ever have her back, ever'. BUT after a long struggle the appraisal meeting was actually constructive.
Lots of questions:
Have you given her a job description, a person specification, and a job plan? Does she have clear aims and objectives? Does she meet these?
Is she on a trial period?
Can you give her an opportunity to improve her performance? Have a mini-appraisal, with 360 degree feedback from clients and colleagues, and outline a development plan? Then if her performance hasn't improved in a set time, clear reasons for dismissal.
What's your disciplinary procedure? If you feel very strongly that her work is unacceptable, could you issue a verbal warning?
Unless she's guilty of gross misconduct, you could have problems just sacking her without going down the full disciplinary route with verbal and written warnings and genuine opportunities to improve. But you probably know that anyway...
Good luck. Interested to know how you get on.

Cab-I dont think she can change. She has been doing her job for 16yrs and if she cant do it yet then cant see it changing-seems to be basic things really,ie lack of logic/common sense.
FairyFly-youre on!
I think legally because she has not worked for us for a year, I could sack her with notice, without warnings etc.
If I go down the route of warnings/pulling up socks etc, cant then go for redundancy option without her smelling a rat, and redundancy might be kinder option for her and better for her next job?

I'd start by seeing if I could resolve this without firing her. Can you manage her more closely? Give her some training? Set targets and show her how to achieve them?

Oh OK, just read your other post meanboss, seems that's not an option!

Be careful meanboss, that she couldn't take you to a tribunal on other grounds.
yes, i believe that under a year can;t be done for unfair dismissal but beware of other issues

am being cryptic sorry

Meanboss - we employ quite a few folk for just 10 months of the year, and I could be wrong, but think you'll find the legal situation has changed quite a bit for even casual staff in the last few years.
Whatever route you go down check it out with lawyer well before you make any moves - just to be on the safe side.

ok can come out of cupboard as all being really helpful-thought you might think I was being horrid.
I run a vets practice and shes a vet so she has to deal with clients and make diagnoses etc, on her own. Not really the sort of job where you can set performance targets etc. She has to be fundamentally capable of doing the job and personally I dont think she is. The nurses have no confidence in her and she asks them things that they couldnt possibly be expected to know but she should.
Stupidly stupidly she is not on a trial period, but we did employ her for 2 weeks as a locum before offering her the job, she was ok then, a bit dizzy but nice. I seriously think she may have some kind of problem as cant see how she could have changed so much.
Thanks all for your advice-I am getting so stressed out about this.

Very tricky situation - redundancy could have big implications for your business growth. Best of luck.

In Northern Ireland, we can turn to the Labour Relations Agency for help/suggestions/support in a situation like this......do you have anything similar where you are? Have a look at the link as it may give you some further food for thought (arbitration may prove useful). Try not to get yourself stressed out, although that may be easier said than done. You have already 'vocalised' very good reasons for taking action.....pull these together in writing (eg all the negative points and any positive points....in the interest of fairness and balance)and take further advice (Citizen's Advice offices are another useful point of contact) on the legal aspects of what you propose to do. At all times focus on the issues in hand and not how you don't want to 'do the deed' as it were. Be as clear and level headed as possible, after all, you have a duty to your other members of staff to act accordingly. IMO this person may have had previous problems of a similar nature...did her references not give any indication of such?

Hopefully you will be able to resolve matters very soon. It is helping no-one, yourself included, to let things continue as they are. One thing though, be truthful in all your dealings, it really is the best way.

butterfly

I would find a (legally checked) way to sack her:
You could lose clients in the long run
Other employees could lose respect for you as boss if they see you continuing to tolerate not-very-good-work, or at least feel unsupported by you by continuing to inflict her on them!
She could, in worst case scenario, land you with a big negligence claim for a dead or maimed pet! (I think I am thinking of that episode in 6 feet under where the undertakers got sued for being unsympathetic to bereaved rellies...and that laugh of hers...)
BUT as she has been there so short a time, you culd (legally check..) make her redundant without incurring big costs, couldn't you?

(I am a softy voluntary sector employer - but I would be mean and horrid and get rid of her somehow, and quickly too)

You cannot sack her because you do not like her laugh (which actually sounds like a nervous laugh to me - even given the volume) or because you don't like her personality. Well you can't in NZ anyway. I was on the receiving end of someone trying to sack me just because they didn't like aspects of my personality, and they were told quite firmly by my representative that it was their problem.

If she is useless at her job then you can sack her by going through the due process, but you will need times and dates and specific examples. I was just told "nobody likes you and nobody wants to work with you". That isn't enough.

So you need some hard evidence and you also might want to be able to show that you had tried to help her improve her work (a course, appraisals, a mentor etc.) Who knows, she might actually improve sufficiently that you don't want to take it any further.

Could you offer her money to leave? There are legal ways it can be done here. She doesn't have a black mark against her, she goes quickly and you can replace her instantly.

Message withdrawn

Do you have a disciplinary procedure? I am taking a colleague through ours at the moment. He will definitely go eventually (as luckily he was on a temporary contract) but the process has been much less painful than I thought. Basically because we have the procedure there I have met with him regularly to discuss his progress and set targets. Then he and I wrote a review sheet in which he stated his strengths and perceived weaknesses, circulated it to all colleagues he works with and went through everything together. Then we agreed targets based on what people had said. A month later we did the same again, but focussed on whether he had met the targets. The feedback was even worse and he certainly hadn't met the targets. If he had not been on a temporary contract we would have dismissed him then. Because he had been aware of the process he was going through, it was so open, and he had a real input into it, he was more accepting than he might have been. He is not an easy person - he did argue that there were things he did well (which we had said), but he had no perception of the things he was not doing - but as it was in black and white and from a variety of sources he did accept it.

Your colleague may be good for business in the short term, but you are a local business and depend on a good local reputation and people coming back to you. So you do need to do something, I reckon. The best advice I got was to be totally open about your observations. HTH.

hi miggy, i think you need to check out the legal situation. it was my understanding you can sack people pretty easily if they have been there less than a year - all the more reason to get it over with. good luck.

I think you need to sit down with her for a "review of how you think you've settled in" and work through your grievances. I don't think it's fair to sack her without trying to sort out the problems - you say she was OK when you employed her as a locum so she can do the job.

I think you may be on very dodgy ground if you try to make her redundant and then open up the position a short time later.

It's not a nice position to be in! The closest I got was having to write peoples' performance reviews

Yes you can get rid of people who haven;t worked for you for a year but you have to take her notice period into account so if she's on 6 months for example, you might have to get your skates on and make a decision. Also, if you get rid of her within the year you do not need to give a reason which might be easier and would give her less ammunition if she was to attempt any redress.

Miggy, you said that you know you can sack her legally so I assume she is unlikely to be able to bring an employment tribunal claim on one of the grounds set out here which sets out areas where an employee does not require a years qualifying service or sex/race/disability/sexual orientation/religion or belief discrimination.

So, are you really looking for a form of words to use? if so, you could say something along the lines of, sorry but your employment with the company has not proven suitable - it is not saying that either party is at fault but that there is mismatch - implying that she is no doubt, very well suited to other jobs. I would not advise lying about redundancies as, if she finds out that she was replaced, she may use it as evidence to imply that the real reason for her dismissal was one of those which don't require a years service. I hope that helps and if you want to contact me through contact another talker for clarification of the law or my ramblings on here, feel free .

Definitely sack her asap - and I'd love to do it for you!!!

Thanks all.
Toddlerbob-We all do like her as a person-thats half the problem. Its not that her laugh is annoying (and I agree its a nervous laugh) just innappropriate at certain times ie telling someone their cat has kidney failure and laughing is not well received generally.
Bloss-you are 100pc right, redundancy would be nicer for me-I am total wimp. Didnt ever want to be the bloody boss, just the way things turned out. I hate hate hate disciplining people.
Am going to have a meeting with her tomorrow, list the problems and see what happens (secretly hoping she will decide to leave of her own accord). Will do a written copy for her too of main problems.
Will keep you informed. Thanks again all

Miggy might be worth while ringing up ACAS the employer help line to see where you stand first... just a thought