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Original poster

Should I sack an employee?

42 replies

meanboss · 05/05/2004 23:00

I am a regular poster but changed name for this as feel horrid about it but would really like some advice. I run a company with 15 employees, 3 of whom are at a senior level and do the same job as myself, which involves dealing with the public. One of these, a woman same age as myself, startd in jan this year. She is a nightmare to work with. People below her have no confidence in her judgement and she is not communicating with her clients well and they are asking to see myself or another senior, to get a second opinion. The whole workplace is chaotic when she is around and she has a really loud laugh which happens all the time and completely inappropriately, even if she is having a disagreement with a client or telling them bad news-very odd. On the other hand, she has been good for turnover because she runs people up huge bills by not being able to work logically.But I hate to do this to people and have actually taken things off their bills and we have paid the costs.
So.. Do I sack her?-legally could but am crap boss and cant bear thought of doing it.
Or Lie- say need to make her redundant-could manage for a while with no replacement
Or just let things drift on-financially ok in short term, but not giving levels of service I want to provide and driving other staff mad (and me)
Please help-any volunteers to do the deed also welcome

OP posts:

smellymelly · 06/05/2004 12:41

Sack Her !!!!

No need to pussy foot around, if she is not doing the job you brought her in to do, and is disrupting the other employees - then you have no choice.

smellymelly · 06/05/2004 12:44

Surely you do not need to make her redundant if she only started in January?

How can anyone expect a pay off if they haven't been doing the job properly?

And it will be easy for her to explain away a few months by saying she just took time off to a future employer (I've done it!), you do not owe this woman a living...

Wow - I'm such a bitch!

SoupDragon · 06/05/2004 12:47

If no one has told her she's not doing the job properly and is simply sorting stuff out behind her back, how is she meant to know she needs to pull her socks up??

Browbeaten · 06/05/2004 12:49

When you employed her did she not have a probation period in her contract? If she is still on probation she has little comeback if you sack her. Alternatively, set out what needs improving and extend it for a further period. HAven't read all posts so maybe this has been said already.

Earlybird · 06/05/2004 13:05

Fisil - I'm sure you're doing things by the book, but must say that the idea of circulating a list of strengths/weaknesses to all personnel this chap works with sounds brutal. He may be incompetent, or completely unaware of/unwilling to accepts his shortcomings - and I know some people will argue their corner endlessly and need "proof". But I would be humiliated beyond belief to have my failings publicly distributed in the workplace among colleagues. I'm sure the situation is more complex than you described in a short note, but hopefully the warning process is also a bit more humane than described in a short note too!

fisil · 06/05/2004 13:22

You're right, earlybird, it was more complex than that, and I'm sorry if it came across as if I'd circulated a list of his weaknesses. He and I designed a review form together using the standard probationary report sections as our model. We tried to make it specific to him as he wanted to improve his perfomance. One question that colleagues had to respond to was:

"XXX describes one of his strengths as having a calm and sensitive approach to the job. Please comment on this."

Another was:

"XXX says he has difficulty focussing some students to work. Can you give him any advice on how to improve."

So it wasn't merely a list of failings - it was a constructive questionnaire filled in only by those he worked directly for.

Earlybird · 06/05/2004 13:49

Fisil - thanks for clarifying. Are review sheets circulated on all employees, or simply those "in trouble"?

It does sound as if you're giving him useful and tangible direction on how to improve if he is willing/able to do so. As ks noted earlier, the hardest thing of all is to be under the mistaken impression that you're doing fine......when you're not. It may be too late for him in this situation, but hopefully you're giving him something useful for future. Oh, and I'm honestly not defending him. Just seems that the "human resources" departments in companies can often be the most "inhumane". Personnel sitations are always delicate legally and emotionally.....

nightowl · 06/05/2004 23:30

well im going to take a different angle to everyone else on this. I did think that perhaps you were being a bit unreasonable until i read that she was a vet. Is it just the paperwork side of things? or could she be misdiagnosing (spelling) things aswell? apart from the fact that yes you could be sued and it really doesnt look good on the practice, many people with pets regard them as members of the family and could be very, very upset by her actions. just an example, i had a cat once that was very ill but the vets just kept sending him home saying he was fine, we took him to a different vet who straight away saw the problem but unfortunatly as it had gone on for so long the cat died during an operation. I never took an animal to the first vet again and told everyone i knew aswell..this kind of thing could be very bad for your business.

tigermoth · 06/05/2004 23:50

think bloss's post was spot on. Glad you are meeting her to discuss this. You must let her know your criticisns and give her a chance to improve, however slim that is.

But you have to think of your business reputation in the long term. I would leave a vet's practice if I felt I was being charged unfairly and I would tell all my friends. People with pets IME tend to compare notes with others, how their dog or budgie got treated by the vet is a big topic of conversation, so word would soon get around.

I do wonder how come she doesn't know basic stuff, yet has been a vet for 16 years. That seems really odd. Any chance of asking her ex employers more about her? Or looking back on her application form and making some phone calls to referees? Do you think she is ill - is some health or dependency problem affecting her work?

tigermoth · 06/05/2004 23:52

nightowl, that's a really good point.

bloss · 07/05/2004 00:48

Message withdrawn

Jimjams · 07/05/2004 15:12

yep if she's been there less than a year you can sack her with no reason. We did that at an old workplace because one guy was hopeless.

So if you need to get rid of her do it before the year end deadline!

tigermoth · 07/05/2004 18:33

I was thinking about this more today and really, picking up on what nightowl said, if she is misdiagnosing and causing pets to die or suffer unnecessarily, then I think you should sack her. It is not merely a business decision any more.

If she is just a bit illogical and disorganised, then give her a chance.

Hope your meeting with her went well.

miggy · 07/05/2004 22:47

Very annoyingly , as I was all fired up, she was off sick today.Grr!
She doesnt misdiagnose, or cause pets to suffer, if she did that I would have no hesitation in sacking her ASAP. its more complicated and bit hard to explain. Say an old cat comes in and I think well it might have x or y but I think X is more likely, so I would test for x and then if it didnt have X, think about y. She would test for x and y, a-m as well, just in case, all in one go. We would both get same answer but in my case, the bill would be a third of hers and the owner would hopefully have an understanding of where we were going. In her case it would be 3 x as much cost and the owner would probably be confused as to the end result. tricky to explain.

tigermoth · 08/05/2004 08:55

oh, that's a relief for you. I didn't want imply that you would have kept her on if she was danerously inept. Hope you can get this talk out of the way asap - lets hope she hasn't cought wind of your intentions and is planning to be off sick till she passes the 1 year deadline! Still I suppose there are ways of warning her if the worst happens.

eddm · 08/05/2004 09:10

If you don't want her to work at your practice anymore then yes, fire her before the deadline, but it's only fair to explain why you don't think she fits with your surgery. Being 'let go' with no explanation is awful. It would be fair to give her a month's salary or whatever her notice period is ? you aren't sacking her for gross misconduct, after all. Actually if her notice period is three months that may take you over the year deadline... do check. Can't remember what it is called but there is some HR society - Institute of Personal and Development? that may be able to advise, or the DTI.
And be careful with references, she can sue if you give a bad reference without recorded facts to back you up - not just your opinion and the issues you've posted here don't seem enough to give a bad reference to me. But you will want to take advice on that - try the DTI again or maybe your local Chamber of Commerce would give you some guidance? Or there's probably a small business organisation - DTI could put you in touch.
Good luck.

littlemissbossy · 08/05/2004 09:24

yes eddm is right, now called Institute of People Development. Their website is good for any hr info including employment law i.e. disciplinary/dismissal advice. Have a look at this before you sack her

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