Guilt

[Jbr]

There is nothing wrong with mothers working, if it is bad for mothers to work, it is bad for dads to work!

Being a mother and a father are no different. I have just left another site called "Babyworld" because some members on that site think mothering and fathering are different. It is sexist drivel.

As for child care being "bad" in some way, some parents who don't work still use some forms of childcare. I was at playgroup when I was 2 until I started school and my mother didn't work! She thought it would help me to learn to play with other children.

Other than the fact that I think guilt is pointless, I also think that there is nothing wrong with women going to work. Women have worked for hundreds of thousands of years and it is only in the last century that it became popular for women to stay at home. This was largely due to economic factors: i.e. that for the first time middle class men earnt enough to provide for their families and it was therefore seen as an indicator that your husband didn't earn enough if women continued to work.
If you feel confident about your childcare and want to work, have to work, enjoy working - why feel guilty? The human race has thrived since its inception with women working, so I don't think that we're all going to spiral into decline now!

Tigger, it took me ages to get past the first page, and then I realised that my ID had already been taken. So it means there is another Tigger on that site (!2 OF YOU - OH MY GOD THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!) - Jbr do you realise you are encouraging us to go off to foreign fields, are you a plant??

On a more serious note.. Copper I do agree with you. My mum worked and I remember as a kid feeling very proud when we chatted in the playground about what our parents did. i used to think the housewife mums were much more boring. No offence to SAHMs (bloody babyworld talk!)but that was my perspective at the time.

Glad someone else had problems getting onto the babyworld site. I did eventually manage it, but its such a b**y faff actually following aything through I gave up. Anyway, from what you've all been saying, I wouldn't like it anyway, being a part-time working mum & therefore dammed by all sides! Hope you all stick around here, it's starting to feel like friends. Oh, and congrats to the people who designed this site.

Debsb - I think working part-time is the best combination of all. I loved it when I worked part-time - I wish I could still afford to.

Yes, I spent half my lunch hour trying and failing to get access to the babyworld site. Every time I put in my children's details it said 'ERROR'. Does it know something I don't???
Not a good start, especially after reading the previous comments on the judgemental attitudes etc. of the some of the contributors. Don't think I'll bother with it.

Copper, I love working part-time, as it's nice to get treated like a real person, not just a mum, sometimes. All the SAHMs I know should have a medal (and none of them have time to watch daytime tv either). I am just in the process of reducing my days from 3 to 2. Interestingly, we can now afford to do this as daughter no 2 starts school in September & we will no longer have to pay the £400 per month nursery fees. We decided to cut the days down, as when I do work, we have difficulty fitting in all the things we need to do in the evening (like eat/homework etc), but I'm now starting to panic. What do you do at home when you aren't working and the kids are at school? Will I start logging on to babyworld & watching Richard & Judy? Will my house start to look tidy (my friends & I decided that tidy house = boring life)? AAARGH!

It looks as though the babyworld moderators should read this page! I too couldn't get into the site - having registered (my 5th attempt at a username was accepted!) the software just died on me when I tried to log into the chat room! Must say that I've never seen a talk site more clearly laid out than mumsnet.

It is funny how everyone assumes you feel guilty if you are working but it can happen the other way round (ie you are at home). I wouldn't say I actually felt guilt as such but I have bad feelings. Mostly because I spend so much time with my child (the exact opposite complaint of working mothers) that I am not fresh for him and that I lose my temper and am generally irritable. I think he wouldn't encounter this if he was at a nursery. Not to mention that his life cannot be as exciting as going somewhere every day and seeing lots of different people. I try to have an active social life for him but some days he does just stay in with me and watches me trawl through the housework with perhaps a walk to the park. Why is it assumed that this is 'better' for your child? I do agree that putting very young babies into nursery is perhaps not a good idea and that you miss out on them because they are only babies for a short time. However certainly by the time they are toddling around they don't need to spend all day with you. In any case it is modern society that means social isolation - in 'ye olden days' kids would have had more contact with extended family.

On the other hand my friend who works full time came round with her 2 kids (3 years and 9 months) when on holiday. She has them both in nursery full time. She says that the nursery is highly regimented and disciplined and she would like her older boy to have a bit more freedom. She says also that he actually gets too much stimulation and as a consequence is bored very quickly when he is not in nursery.

So - who can say which is 'better' - I think it depends what you do with your child whether it is in the evenings/weekends or in between the washing up (or Richard and Judy - haha! - I can't remember the last time I watched a whole TV prog)

I feel terrible now. I didn't mean to run BW down. It's just the whole thing seems to be geared at women working as some sort of last resort if you can't find a bloke to support you financially, if you see what I mean. Alot of people are actually quite nice. You didn't used to have to log into the boards at first but you do now.

I told you I don't use it now so I went to the Freeserve women's boards and I quite liked them. Except when I got to the careers and saw "Should mums work full time?" and that was that! Then the news board had a similar thing about working mothers causing the breakdown of family life!

Message withdrawn

Bloss,
How do you know Babyworld has been having server problems? Do you work for them? I think it's a decent enough site from my brief look (lovely pic on the front) but it reminds me of a pregnancy magazine. Lots of fluffy pink and not much gritty reality. Isn't it owned by Freeserve?

www.flametree.co.uk

This web site is specifically aimed at working mothers. Has some useful stuff on legislation, child care etc.

Eulalia's points about staying at home are good - it seems you just can't escape from guilt! Must admit that I have a difficult relationship with some (not all) SAHMs because I miss my children so much during the working day (currently 12 hours). For example, one place where I worked, there was the MD's wife who just did 11 hours a week in the office to keep her hand in. She had her own special chair and computer: oh, and she didn't work at all during the school hols. Arrghhhh! I could hardly bring myself to be civil to this perfectly inoffensive woman! Apologies to all the part time workers I have just offended!! I think there is a lot of resentment/guilt simmering under the surface on this issue, and judging by what is apparently being said on the babyworld site, it comes from all sides. Must say, I have found it particularly interesting and helpful to read about other people's experiences and opinions on this site.

by the way Nancy,
we know babyworld has been having server problems because of all the difficulties we've had trying to connect to the site.

Message withdrawn

GUILT - a big bag of burden that the midwives deliver along with the placenta! No-one warned me about this at all. I feel guilty every time the kids get a cold, every time they don't like their meals - ridiculous when you look at it. As for guilt over working, ABSO-BLOODY-LUTELY, every time I go to work, I feel bad, every time the phone rings, I feel bad etc. etc. etc. BUT I deal with it by understanding that as a single parent I SIMPLY DON'T HAVE A CHOICE and I work very hard to make sure that the children understand this and that if the world were different, I would not be working at all.

THE BEST TIP ANYONE EVER GAVE ME ABOUT GUILT:-
When speaking to my mother about angst over having to work and what a terrible mother I was, she sighed and said 'Look Lou, do what you feel to be right at the time. No matter what happens the children will reach 16 and say that whatever route you took was the wrong one so you may as well do what you feel. Hopefully when they reach 18+ they will suddenly realise what it was all about'. Poignant, sad but it works for me!!!

Ta ra

I often find the times I have been at home through no fault of my own, I've created moments rather than those things would happen anyway if I wasn't there. Does that make any sense at all?

hi,
I'm 5 weeks into my second pregnancy. child No1 now almost 3 years old. Why does this one feel so much harder!
I've a great job, son at nursery , which he loves, is great for him & me & husband. I'm just not sure what to do about No. 2.

My boss has just resigned to go to another job. If it wasn't for No 2 baby I'd be going for his job big time - but I'm not sure now.

I feel so much more guilty this time.
I'll be honest, I'm not keen on the baby stage. I find them too demanding & clingy & give little in return. Ther're much nicer as toddlers. So why am I unsure about work?

I've not said anything at work about the second baby. Its too early, its almost appraisal time & there's this career opportunity. But it feels wrong to imply I'm gung ho for a step up when part of me is thinking "what if I went part time afterwards... maybe when our son starts school..

Talking to husband we discuss, scorpio-like, the possibility of him working part time in the future. (I earn more) A breakthru as he doesn't dismiss it out of hand.
My head says - go for the career, you're worth it. While inside i'm so unsure.

I know I couldn't do full-time mum, wouldn't want it - but how can I admit my pregnancy and go for a promotion? Unfortunately there are no role models for me at work .I'm the only female in our department in a mangerial position with a child. All senior managers are men with wives who don't work. All working mums tend to be in lower management positions.

Should i stick my neck out and got for my bosses job - knowing i'm going to need at least 5 mths off next year?

Confused - with hormones raging

You are a full time mum. Why not go for this bosses job. What's stopping you?

Legally being pregnant shouldn't stop you getting promoted.

Jbr, legally means one thing, but reality is another. Ann who could cover for you while you were on leave? that would be the real problem I think. On the short-term, it would be awkward to take on a role and then have to leave it for 5 months. In fact, legality aside, is it fair on the rest of the staff - you'll have to work with their bad vibes before and after maternity leave!

If on the other hand you could get decent cover, I cetainly wouldn't worry about the longer-term circumstances. Its no diferent from seone taking on a job and then leaving for another within a short time.

So she has to have one or the other. And besides she can if she's well enough of course work right up.

Nobody says that by not going for the promotion you're not worth it, Ann, it just means that your priorities are different for now. You can't pretend to your office that you're not pregnant and as Lil says, you will have to live with the bad vibes from the rest of the staff. There was a good article (IMHO) in yesterday's Times by Ann Treneman on pretty much this sort of issue (also Libby Purves touched on it in her column - you can tell I was having a quiet day!). Personally, I was shocked by the advent of a second child - for me it was more than twice the work and emotional effort of one - and if I were in the same situation, I would ask myself whether I could cope with two children and an even more responsible job. Good luck with deciding, though, and please let us know what you end up doing.

well its appraisal day tomorrow & i'm all prepared to wow my boss with what great job i've done this year.
I can't mention the 2nd baby - its too early anything could still happen.

the crunch is going to be when he asks about my career aspirations - thinly veiled as info he takes back to the senior bods to see whether they offer me more.
I feel I have to be honest to myself and say what i'd love in an ideal world - but i can't mention the 2nd baby. however much companies say they belive in equal oportunities its the people who make the decisions who bring with them all kinds of hang-ups & prejudices- I know, I have enough of my own!

All I think I can do is reiterate the need to balance work & home life generally - I'm a professional , I always get the job done ; even if I need time of to pick up a sick child or work from home occassionally.
thanks for the feedback - its really helped just to "talk"
Hey, I could be worryig about nothing! I could get in there tomorrow & be told i've not worked there long enough to get promotion anyway.
thanks for listening

Ann,
I hope everything went really well for you at your appraisal today. I understand that you're in a difficult situation here.

I think there are two separate issues for you, 1) whether you actually want the job and 2) whether you should tell your company the WHOLE story.

With regard to issue 1), I agree with the others' comments. Motherhood does give us different priorities and certainly different criteria for measuring 'success'. My advice would be to find out as much about the job as you can (have some long conversations with your boss before he goes), and discuss the possibilities with your husband. The point is that you don't have to make a decision immediately; if you still might be interested in the job, then apply. Any other candidates for the job wouldn't be expected to sign in blood that this was definitely the job for them.

Now onto issue 2). I do understand how you feel it wrong to imply that you're up for the promotion when you're considering potentially reducing your hours. I think your approach of 'I'm professional whilst looking for home/life balance' is spot on. I couldn't agree more that despite supposed 'Equal Opportunities' there are a lot of decision-makers out there with prejudices against women, epecially pregnant women. If you were to tell them about the baby, my guess would be that this information would seriously jeopardise your chances of getting the promotion, irrespective of the law.

I'm concerned that Lil and Sid just seem to accept that there would be bad vibes from your team if you took the job and were then on maternity leave. Aren't such bad vibes an example of prejudice in themselves? I'm not disagreeing that some members of the team might think along the lines of 'what a cheek, she took the job knowing she was pregnant, didn't tell the bosses and has now left us to get on with it'. But we shouldn't be acceping this attitude. This is YOUR career we're talking about and if you do decide that this is the job for you, you shouldn't let others' prejudices get in your way. Anyway, as Sid said, you could arrange suitable cover for your absence.

Just another point: Had you considered the possibility of taking the job and making it a jobshare upon your return from maternity leave ?

You're right, Anibani, you shouldn't let the prejudices of others get in the way, but fighting them does make your own life a lot harder. I guess Ann has to assess whether she has the resources to win that battle at the moment - I'm looking forward to hearing the outcome of her appraisal.