should parents have priority over non parents for leave during school holidays?

[tanzie]

I ask because my (childless) boss informed me last week that she is taking 2 days off during half term week (one either side of public holiday). I said that I wanted leave this week as it is half term (but only Tues - Fri). She has said I can have one day (Monday!) but not Tuesday as there is a meeting that day that I will have to do (we are supposed to cover for each other's leave).

This is not the first time it has happened. She has also booked leave for the first 2 weeks in September, and I had already asked if I could have the first week off to settle DDs into new school year. The answer is no, she is going away. No consultation on dates. She has also said she wants most of August off!

I get (for some strange reason) 8 weeks leave a year. Last year I only managed to take 4 weeks, so I have carried 4 forward. I have booked 2 weeks in July (before she got her claws on that as well), but don't see me getting to take any more leave over the summer - which is the best time to take it - work is quieter, and DDs are off school.

The Head Honcho doesn't want to get involved - says we should be able to sort it out between us.

Anyone?

Tricky one. I must admit that in my own experience those without schoolage children are usually more than happy to avoid school holidays - everything is more crowded, more expensive and full of kids.

But as for parents "having a right", I think that parents already have more generous rights than the childless. What are your arrangements for booking leave? How far in advance can you do so, or is it skewed so that she can always book before you? If the booking system is always skewed, then you probably should take it up with the head honcho. If it is just a case that you were slow getting of the mark in booking your leave, then I'm afraid that this will just be a painful lesson in booking early (have you booked Christmas yet?) Certainly I don't think parents should have an automatic right to school hols, but neither should they be prevented from choosing them.

LadyMuck, she has to sign off (ie approve) my leave request. She can put in her leave request to HH who will approve it and I won't know anything about it until given a fait accompli.

I don't mean (sorry, badly worded) that I should have "rights" over leave in school holidays, just that a little consideration wouldn't go amiss. She can take leave at other times. If I want to spend it with my kids, I can't.

OK. I generally (but not always) would tell my staff (or at least my direct reports) when I was on leave - but I wouldn't necessarily check with them as it were. And if they had already booked leave (we can book for the entire calender year from mid-December of the previous year), then I wouldn't make them change.

On one hand you would like her to leave you the school hols, but you're also upset that she has booked September. I can't see how you can have it both ways.

Sorry, it sounds as if I'm being very unsympathetic. I don't mean to be. I did always tell my mother off for booking her leave during the school hols (after her children had left school). She pointed out that anyone was free to book those weeks - as a manager she always felt that she had to book hers early as getting cover was essential.

tanzie - I can see both your pov and that of Lady Muck. The system in your workplace appears to be unfair and the Head Honcho should take an active role in this situation. I was in a similar position a few years back and recently was in a big work meeting where he (my HH) was torn to bits for his management of people and issues. I shouldn't have, but I loved every minute of it!! Good luck!

I'm more worried about the fact that you don't seem to be getting your annual leave entitlement at all, Tanzie. Is that what your boss is basically unsupportive about? I had a job like that -- officially we were allowed 6 weeks leave. At the interview they even talked about the issue of how my duties would be covered when I went on leave. But if I ever tried to take leave, esp. for more than 1 week at a time, it was a major fuss. Really hacked me off.

And that was when I didn't even had children!

LM- there are two of us and we cover for each other. Therefore, sensible to check before booking leave, non? I am not upset that she has booked September but if she had asked, I would have asked if I could have had, if not the whole of the first week, then a couple of days, to settle the kids into school. Ideally, and if she had asked, I would have asked if she minded taking weeks two and three instead.

I just seem to be shat on at every turn here. I am supposed to get substitution pay when she is on leave but she has to be off for at least a week, and she always manages to pop in for an afternoon or a few hours which means I get sod all money - she sweetly points out that she wasn't off all week and if I stick a claim in it will be fraud.

MZ - you are right, it's a farce. And we are supposed to be working for Investors in People accreditation as well. If we get it, it will be the fourth biggest lie of all times!

tanzie,

I think the substitution pay is something that you can complain to your boss's boss about and he should get involved. Popping in for an afternoon is not the same as really being there. If boss is on holiday they should stay away, I've seen people sent back home again for coming in when they are on leave. Or could you use to your advantage and ask boss's boss to make her "pop in" for the time you want to settle your kids into school since you are not entitled to the substitution pay. Oh, people who faff about with holidays make me cross. Have a break and let other people have one too!

Agree with toddlerbob - you can also make a grievance (this would involve HH and should resolve the issues) about the way you have been treated(not having had all your entitlement and then having manager take time off that you have asked for as well as acting in a way to deprive you of substitution pay) she sounds as if sh eis jealous of you in some way and you need to address the issues in a positive non confrontation way

Agree with gothicmama and toddlerbob tanzie. It's a hard one, I agree. I can sort of see it from both points of view - my department is mostly women, most of whom have children and all of us will want time off over the holidays. It just won't be feasible for everyone to get what they want so I think it'll be first come first served. In your position I think I'd book next years holiday now, all 8 weeks of it. I also agree that popping in isn't the same as being there so there's no way you should be deprived of substitution pay because she decides to put her head round the door. Not on, imo and that does need addressing. Presumably she hasn't taken all of the school holidays this summer? If she has, that's very unfair. I'll be turning down any request for 4 weeks holiday all at once during the holidays as it's not fair on everyone else. I think most cos have a policy of only a certain amount at any one time to avoid this. You're not in the UK are you? Otherwise I'd wonder whether the flexible working laws would help. I do sympathise, it does sound like she has some issues with you. Maybe she's not intentionally childless? Ladymuck, what are all these 'generous rights' that parents get and non parents don't?

We have a similar problem with dh's colleagues. When we were childless we avoided taking dates which would affect those of dh's colleagues with children (those with whom he couldn't clash anyway). Now the shoe is on the other foot, it doesn't seem to be working in our favour

Anyway, dh is soooo bad at booking time off that we are often left with dreadful dates, so I have taken to planning the year ahead and booking dates as early as possible.

Could you do this? Take out your diary - even for next year - and look at when you might want time off. Go and book it NOW. You can always unbook it later if you find circumstances change, but if you don't what your boss to keep grabbing all the "good" dates you need to get in first.

I don't think parents should have more rights over school holidays - after all, why should the childless miss out on taking holidays in August for example? But I do think parents have to be more organised.

In answer to the title of this thread, no, I don't think parents should have priority over non parents for leave. Unfortunately for those without children, the school holidays are just when everyone else wants to be off- Christmas, Easter, Whitsun & late July- August. I thought the new 6-term year would help this but the changes are so minor, it won't.

I'll admit I do get wound up when 1/2 the office wants the October half-term, even those without children, & perhaps for that & the February one it wouldn't be unreasonable to let parents have first pick. The difficulty is that if you haven't got school-age children you are completely unaware of the dates of school terms. Not only that, if you are being paid to do a job, your parenthood is irrelevant to the business.... I still remember a "friend" who'd been a SAHM going for a job & coming in steaming that she wanted 2 weeks off in August- that she hadn't mentioned at the interview- and they wouldn't let her (she started in June). Some people seem to have this idea that it is their "right" to time off in the school holidays. Unless you're on a term time contract I'm afraid it isn't.

Would it be possible to have a quiet word with personnel now? I think you are perpetuating the problem by booking hols ahead for next year - you risk it becoming a race between you and your boss and that's not very adult or professional.

I think your boss is being selfish in booking hols without ever consulting you on dates. It's simply not on as you and her cover for each other so closely. You both need to agree on holiday dates before any are booked. If the department was bigger you wouldn't be so vulnerable and your boss wouldn't need to consult you as much. The problem is made worse by the fact you have children and need to be off during school holidays, but IMO that's not the basic issue here.

You need to tackle the issue of no holiday cover. Is there any chance someone else in the company (or even a temp) could cover for you? Have your company really given this thought? It's their problem not yours. Are you and your boss so indespensible? What would happen if your department closed down for a week occasionally? If you both knew it was coming up, couldn't you prepare for this? I would ask personnel these questions, then you won't be directly complaining about your boss, just complaining about the unfair situation. If the conversation turns to how your boss books dates, tell them honestly and let them be the ones to say it she is unfair.

I think the substitution pay and your difficulty in taking all your hol entitlement also need to be addressed. If you have had to carry hol over against your wishes, surely you should have first choice of hol dates this year?

WWW, parents have rights to maternity/paternity leave and pay, rights to request flexible working patterns, and rights to emergency leave, and parental leave (for thosae with under-5s). Many childless employees feel especially aggrieved at the flexible working regulations.

The boss is entitled to holidays too, and why should she have to justify her reasons? I needed to be away for October half-term due to my brothers wedding. In a previous year I also took this time off for my own wedding. THere are more school holidays in the year than most employees have the leave to cover. From Tanzie's posting regarding the May bank holiday, it doesn't sound as if by the start of last week she had applied for the week's leave that she was hoping for. In my books, if she hadn't asked for it, and I was in her boss's situation I wouldn't feel that I had to ask everyone about going on leave - I would have checked the leave book or whatever and then seen my boss to OK it. If the week was important to Tanzie I would have thought that she could have booked it more than 6 weeks in advance.

There are clearly other grievances between Tanzie and her boss, and I think that they need to be looked at - certainly it sounds as if the picture for August is at best unclear. I usggest that Tanzie formally applies for whichever weeks in August she wants - the boss can either OK or not, but if the reason why not remains unclear, or the boss keeps procastinating, then this is probably the best specific to go to HH with.

The right to 'unpaid leave for dependents or emergencies' can cover anything from your washing machine flooding the kitchen to your father having a fall. I have been told this by personnel. When the law first came in I looked up the reglations on the govt website. As I understand it, you don't have to have children to qualify for it.

IMO though LadyMuck, parents (mothers and fathers) need more flexibility than non parents. It is different to being childess: a child depends on you if you're a parent; a child doesn't depend on you if you're not. So if they're ill (and children do get ill, it's no-one's fault) very often a parent needs to be there, hence emergency leave. If you're not a parent you aren't going to have the same kind of emergencies, although as tigermoth points out, non parents are entitled to take it in her organisation. Of course parents have rights to maternity and paternity leave. (although the pat leave is so pitiful that not many men take it up, see this thread here. ) What do these childless people suggest - that we pop back to work immediately after having children? Or fund maternity leave ourselves? (many people do of course) Mat/pat leave rights are among the worst in the EU , hardly a huge cost to business. Why should childless people mind if parents want to work flexibly or part time? If you work part time you get paid part time - they're perfectly welcome to apply for part time jobs too and take the consequent drop in income.

Flexible working doesn't damage business either. (but employers have been slow to recognise this) In fact, the Dti argue that it's beneficial to business. I think we're all entitled to some work/life balance but parents need flexibility more than non parents IMO. Society not only needs people to have children,The EOC says parents and carers save the economy billions of pounds per year

Err, I'm not disagreeing that these rights aren't beneficial to parents. If you look back at what I was saying I think that parents do have more generous rights that the childless, but having automatic first choice over school holidays is just a step too far imo. I wasn't saying that parents shouldn't have better rights, but there are lots of reasons as to why people want to take leave at a particular point (and yes, bank holidays are obviously popular), and I don't think that parents should always take priority.

Tigermoth - I don't think that the legislation does cover washing machine floods I'm afraid...

I might be wrong about the washing machine floods, but I know I'm not wrong about 'unpaid leave off for dependents' legislation covering people with elderly parents, pets, etc. It's not only for parents,and that's the point I was making. Even my old company (private sector, not family friendly) informed us of this.

I have seen how childless employees can feel aggrieved about their lack of flexible working hours compared to parents. But I think it is wrong to blame the parents for this. It is the company culture that is at fault. Flexible working is possible and IMO works better if everyone (job permitting) is able to do it. Parents can't make that happen, though, so no good sniping at them.

Actually, I do think the boss is at fault if their employees feel aggrieved about their holiday arrangements. OK, late booking of holidays is never a good idea, but if clashes are very likely ( as in tanzie's case with a 2 person department) then there should be clear and fair rules about booking holidays communicated to all staff. And that's something the boss is responsible for.

The organisation I work for supposedly guarantees flexible working for anyone who wants it, regardless of status. But getting it is something else.

LM - you have said my boss shouldn't have to justify her reasons for leave - fair enough, but why should I? I asked for this (half term) leave several weeks ago. The organisation I work for is panic driven - it is absolutely impossible to book leave early. If there is a crisis, it gets cancelled. End of story. If you try asking for leave a long way ahead, you are told to "wait and see" how things are nearer the time. And no-one can - or will - cover. It is too "techy".

I take annual leave every time my DD is ill (she has severe asthma, so this has been quite a bit recently - well, about 3 afternoons in total, come to think about it!). No question of assuming I am going to get special leave of any kind. But my boss takes Friday pm off quite frequently without filling in a leave chit.

And LM - I do think you are being unsympathetic!

great post, www. and also, tigermoth. what i can't understand is why anyone would want to take their holidays in school hols time if they didn't have to.

But this manager always "pops in" so she isn't going anywhere on holidays so she won't care about prices etc. Do not rule out that she is doing it to be bloody minded...I once had a boss that would have done considerably more than this to try to wind my up.

Tanzie,

I am sorry that you felt that I was being unsympathetic. Please reread my first post. What I said there was that if the leave booking system is skewed, then you should see the HH, by which I was implying that you have a genuine grievance. Your subsequent posts did not provide this latest information in that it is not possible for your leave requests to be approved before those of your boss, and that leave has always to be approved at the last minute. It is clearly unfair that your boss can book holidays in Spetember but that you can't even book in 6 weeks time.

Tigermoth,

Sorry the legislation does cover dependants, but this does not include washing machines or pets! And it only covers Great Aunt Matilda if she usually relies on you in an emergency, not if she lives with her own family or you haven't seen her for 15 years. It does cover dependants who live with you and other people who are dependant on you for care. Yes it is wider than being for just children, but it was orginally drawn up to primarily benefit parents. I personally think that this widening is a good thing, and I agree that flexible working is also beneficial and look forward to seeing that extended. These are rights given to assist working parents with young children, to increase the number of women able to return to the workplace after having children and to reduce the number of families relying on benefits. They are necessarily targeted towards these groups, and their impact is reduced as a step change in the workplace if automatically awarded to every employee. That said, their introduction has caused many employers to rethink their approach and that is a good thing.

Tanzie,

Froma legal perspective your position is difficult. If there is a staff handbook with a leave booking procedure in it, then check your contract of employment to see whether the staff handbook is binding. If it is and you are not allowed to book leave in accordance to the staff handbook, then you need to discuss this with HH - you may have a case for an employment tribunal as your company may be in breach of contract.

If this is not the case, and you are simply entitled to 8 weeks leave, and there is no mention of how leave is to be booked, then legally the position is more difficult. The employer is allowed to state when you can have leave. I think that this is a very difficult position for anyone, not just parents, but at least there have been changes which would allow you time off for your dd's asthma.

LM, Toddlerbob, WWW, Tiger moth...thank you
I am back in the office tomorrow and will bite the bullet saying we need to sort out who is having leave and when from now until September (if she thinks she has booked the first two weeks, then this must be acceptable, surely).

She is perfectly pleasant normally, if a little dull - no Sense of Humour (but then mine has clearly failed me tonight LM ) but does get very militant and wound up about leave, with the view that her leave always comes first...

LadyMuck, sorry to be pedantic but you said

"But as for parents "having a right", I think that parents already have more generous rights than the childless." When I asked what these generous rights were you said:

"...parents have rights to maternity/paternity leave and pay, rights to request flexible working patterns, and rights to emergency leave, and parental leave (for thosae with under-5s). Many childless employees feel especially aggrieved at the flexible working regulations."

I was saying that I thought parents needed and deserved these rights and I don't agree that they're generous! I also don't think childless employees should feel aggrieved. Maybe we're disagreeing over the word generous?

tanzie,
you have a lot of opinions here in response to your original question (my answer to which is no, absolutely not, unless the parent in question is me and it suits me )
However, can I make a suggestion regarding your relationship with your manager in general? Keep a diary of what is happening - I know it sounds petty when you do this, but I have seen similar situations develop in the past, and they invariably blow up at some point. IME a record of the things you have described here, will stand you in good stead