should parents have priority over non parents for leave during school holidays?

[tanzie]

I ask because my (childless) boss informed me last week that she is taking 2 days off during half term week (one either side of public holiday). I said that I wanted leave this week as it is half term (but only Tues - Fri). She has said I can have one day (Monday!) but not Tuesday as there is a meeting that day that I will have to do (we are supposed to cover for each other's leave).

This is not the first time it has happened. She has also booked leave for the first 2 weeks in September, and I had already asked if I could have the first week off to settle DDs into new school year. The answer is no, she is going away. No consultation on dates. She has also said she wants most of August off!

I get (for some strange reason) 8 weeks leave a year. Last year I only managed to take 4 weeks, so I have carried 4 forward. I have booked 2 weeks in July (before she got her claws on that as well), but don't see me getting to take any more leave over the summer - which is the best time to take it - work is quieter, and DDs are off school.

The Head Honcho doesn't want to get involved - says we should be able to sort it out between us.

I think you are picking my grammar apart, so yes you are being pedantic .

Under the current legislation parents have additional rights to leave that non-parents do not have (and I agree that THIS IS A GOOD THING!!!!!). In my view this means that the bundle of rights accorded to parents in the workplace is currently more generous that the similar bundle of rights accorded to non-parents.

But as for childless people feeling aggrieved, ime flexible working is a much valued option - tons of studies show this, and the take-up of the new regs by parents just back it up. If 2 employees are doing an identical job, and one is a parent of an under-5, he/she is entitled to say ask for homeworking for example. The other employee does not have any legal right to be considered. Are you really not surprised that the childless person would feel aggrieved in that situation?

Tanzie, I think your boss is being wildly unfair and unreasonable - I can't believe she can just hog the whole month of August. That simply isn't right. And if you can't take your entitlement then I do think your boss's boss or HR (if there is one) should step in to ensure things are fairer for you. I also think maybe you should informally book your time quite a way in advance by memo/email to your boss - so even if you can't actually book it, she does have it in writing that you'd like the time. If she consistently ignores your requests and books the time herself I would suspect that she is doing it deliberately and that would bother me.
I don't believe that the vast majority of childless employees do begrudge parents rights to take bits of unpaid time off, frankly. Or to have a few weeks paid leave when they have a baby. I never felt like that.
Though I very much hope that in the future most companies will offer all staff flexible working - it makes sense for companies and employees and is the way forward for everyone.

Hmm LadyMuck, Ok, so I do disagree with you about generosity then! (see my earlier post re EU vs UK etc) but glad you think these rights are a good thing. Re the childless feeling aggrieved at not having access to these (not generous IMO) rights, I suppose I think these childless people can f* off actually, given the many, many things they can do that a person with children can't

Ladymuck I agree with you.
A friend works for the inland revenue. He has no children. Parents in his office can take unpaid leave for the whole of the summer holiday.
That is great if you are a parent .
He is very aggreived because his work is very pressurised and basically those left in the office will have to do the work of those who are taking parental leave as well as their own.
The counter argument is that the IR should make sure they are sufficiently staffed no matter who is on leave for whatever reason but in the real world it's not like that and it is left to people like my friend to deal with a hugely increased workload.

Like remembering to use contraception...

Because if becoming a parent is a choice, then you need to weigh all these things up, don't you. At least you can now move within Europe to better your rights...

Childless colleagues can be so supportive.

Sorry - posts crossed Jasper. My comment was to WWW.

It's a tricky line to balance policy wise. Thankfully some employers are dealing with the issues "fairly", and are managing to give greater rights to all. But the Government also needs to get those parents who want to work back in the workplace, and that means by discrimination.

Tanzie - I don't think the issue here really should be over parents v non parents, because on thast issue I think the answer has to be no. There are other reasons why people without school age children may need to take holidays in school ho,liday time. For example, before we had DD my DH always had to take his time off ins chool holidays. I am a teacher so in order to go away together he would need holiday time. Similarly this summer DG, my parents, my sister and my brother are all taking time off in the summer school holidays so we can all go away together (again - because I am a teacher so only time). It would be very unfair for them to be denied those holidays.

However, I think the real issue here is whether or not your boss is being fair with her own holidays. Is she using her influence/position to unfairly 'bag' all her holiday times without thibnking of her other staff? If this is the case then yes she is being very unreasonable and it isn'yt on. Regardless of her position you should both get a fair chance to vook holidays at the same time, and evenly. I think to have half of September and still want more in August, with no consideration for other staff and their requirements is definitely unfair. Just because she is your boss she shouldn't be using that to be unreasonable. She sounds a bit power crazed!

I think you need to keep a copy of all your holiday request (well in advance) and her replies - ask for them in writing with reasons. If it continues the take this to the Head Honcho to discuss.

Tanzie - I don't think the issue here really should be over parents v non parents, because on thast issue I think the answer has to be no. There are other reasons why people without school age children may need to take holidays in school ho,liday time. For example, before we had DD my DH always had to take his time off ins chool holidays. I am a teacher so in order to go away together he would need holiday time. Similarly this summer DG, my parents, my sister and my brother are all taking time off in the summer school holidays so we can all go away together (again - because I am a teacher so only time). It would be very unfair for them to be denied those holidays.

However, I think the real issue here is whether or not your boss is being fair with her own holidays. Is she using her influence/position to unfairly 'bag' all her holiday times without thibnking of her other staff? If this is the case then yes she is being very unreasonable and it isn'yt on. Regardless of her position you should both get a fair chance to vook holidays at the same time, and evenly. I think to have half of September and still want more in August, with no consideration for other staff and their requirements is definitely unfair. Just because she is your boss she shouldn't be using that to be unreasonable. She sounds a bit power crazed!

I think you need to keep a copy of all your holiday request (well in advance) and her replies - ask for them in writing with reasons. If it continues the take this to the Head Honcho to discuss.

Well, this afternoon, I said I wanted to talk about leave in August, and had she had any thoughts yet as to what she wanted to do? She said she hadn't and wanted to wait and see nearer the time. I said that as she hadn't booked anything, I would therefore like to take the first two weeks in August, which would follow on from my two weeks in July. She said she wanted to leave any leave decisions until nearer the time. I said I'd rather sort it now. If she needed me during this time, I would be at home, but she would have to give me notice (and a damn good reason!) if she wanted me to come in to work as childcare might be difficult, as my nanny was entitled to leave as well. She was still non-committal, saying she wanted to wait, but when she had gone out of the office I marked the two weeks in August off as my leave (childish, I know). I also happened to notice that she is also taking leave in June (few days) and two weeks in July as well as two weeks in September, so I think the least she can do is let me have leave in July and August. I should manage to take 5 out of my 8 weeks this year, which is an improvement on last year.

Now the leave is marked on the chart, I can say I discussed it with her before marking it up

Jasper - your friend's situation is mad and I feel very sorry for him. But then I've always felt that the IR wasmad

Hulababy - I take your point on teachers. My mum was in the same position.

Tanzie, do you know my friend? He is lovely, but yes, mad!

Blimey, she really does sound quite unreasonable. If I were you, I'd keep prompting her about the leave - say, once every three or four weeks to remind her that you want it off and have marked it.

Bit of a stressful way to have to do things though.

Sorry Tanzie, I overlooked your original query. I don't think it should be enshrined in workplace policy for parents to have first refusal fror time off during school holidays but it does seem only decent to do this wherever possible on an informal basis.

It is very hard balancing this kind of thing as an employer.
At our workplace there are two bosses/partners (myself and another) and two employees. The nature of the job means it is very difficult to work if any one of the team is absent for whatever reason.(we work in pairs) To this end the employees usually get first pick of holidays and one of the bosses will take off the same week.

Recently there has been a problem. One of the employees is a single mum; the teachers at her daughter's nursery are on strike. Most days she can get a family member to look after her daughter but on several occasions she has been let down at the last minute. On those days we have told her not to worry, obviously her daughter comes first and she needs to stay home to look after her (on full pay).

This causes a lot of disruption at work ( which we can handle) but the worst aspect is that the other employee (who has been with us much longer and has no kids) feels very put upon ! It is a no win situation for us. Fortunately we are all upfront , and good friends to boot, so the resentment is not long lasting but you can see her point.

Jasper - I don't know anyone who works for the IR, but that is exactly the sort of mad policy I'd expect them to have.

In my last job, I used to work with someone who would often ring in and say she "was a bit tired" and "didn't feel like coming in" or there was a "problem" (always unspecified) with the kids, so she wouldn't come in then, either. She refused to take annual leave (let alone unpaid) and her line manager was too much of a wuss to do anything about it. Most of the others in the office were single and used to really resent this. Which is why I have always made absolutely sure that any child-related leave is taken as annual leave, not just left in limbo, as I knowhow much this sort of thing pees off the childless.

I was also assertive and told her I would be leaving at 4.00 on Thursday to collect DD1 from a play date. I am not taking this as leave as she disappears at 3.00 or earlier every other Friday to visit her parents. My goodness, I have been feisty today!

Now I am wondering when I can take my other three weeks and the four weeks left from last year! Maybe October and November? I get a week at Christmas which doesn't count in A/L as the office is closed.

I'm off to look at some holiday brochures!

Jasper - don't work for IR (yet!) but I do work for Civil Service and work term-time. This is pretty much available to anyone, regardless of whether you have children. Would assume it is the same in IR. I know a single bloke who now has the whole of August off. I wish more childless people/men would work part-time, take the "stigma" off female parents. Am sick of hearing, from blokes, disparaging comments about women working term-time "It's alright for you" etc. "I have taken a pay cut you know", "It's available to anyone you know". Can you tell this is a seething issue? Sorry, off the point of the thread. Appreciate this is a different issue in small companies. Would have hated to ever have to check if my leave was ok with anyone.

tanzie, good on you for taking the bull by the horns and talking it through with your boss. I had a boss who used the line, 'lets see nearer the time'. Like you I decided I'd take this to mean a 'yes' and would book the time off (after discussing it and giving proper notice) leaving it up to the boss to find a good reason to cancel it. If it's possible to get ahead of things before your holidays, you could show your boss how much you are doing to make things easier for her during your time away.

Tanzie, good on you for being feisty and sorry for hijacking your thread a bit earlier! She's being REALLY unreasonable imo, August isn't that far away, not at all. I'd ask her why she can't make a decision until nearer the time (can't imagine what the heck would be a reasonable answer to that) and if that doesn't work, then I would go to HH I think. But hey, I'm the stroppy type

Tinker, re my IR friend, the colleague he sees as landing him in it over the school hols is male.

next time I see him I will ask him if he too could take chunks of work off unpaid and if the answer is yes I will tell him to stop whingeing!

Well girlies what do you think of this - DP has last pick of school holidays because DD is not his and everyone else had children before him!!

Can you believe it - it infuriates me that the others see DD as not being a member of his family, can't wait till this baby comes along to see what they say about things then!!

He is even going to have to book holiday to come to scans with me when his boss goes to the hospital once every fortnight with his wife cause she has a wasting disease and he doesn't take it as holiday!!

GGGRRRR - Stick up for yourself Tanzie and make sure that you get all of the holiday you are entitled to - if she says o to some of it just say well what date can I take it - you do know it is illegal to deny someone holiday!!

Twinkie i think that is outrageous.

I know but DP so doesn't like rocking boats - I would bloody shove it and drown the lot of them if I were him!!!