Conversion to Law

[Wannabe2015]

Hello all,

I have a simple question that I have googled/queried at length but can't find a definitive answer to.

I am applying for CPE/GDL. Do I need to have undertaken work experience in a solicitor's office/firm before submitting the application or is it acceptable to apply having lined up relevant work experience to take place before the start of the course?

I graduated in 2005 and am moving from IT background/SAHM, hoping to enter into law.
Thanks

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I have heard that this is the easiest bit of the journey.

Are you a lawyer? Have you done the GDL/CPE? How did you find it?

Yes. I would like to do LPC but I won't go ahead with it unless I've secured a TC. So at this point it is a gamble but it's become the thing I regret not pursuing years ago (I'm 30).
Did you have TC in place before LPC?

Ultimately i would like to specialise In IT law. But i am realistic about the market and just how tough it is now. So I'm trying not to look too far ahead. I'm in a position to do the GDL, I'll take it one step at a time.
Congratulations on getting in and making it work. :-)

What sort of law do you want to do? Most commercial law firms recruit trainees over two years in advance. So a lot of people end up paying for themselves through 2 years of law school and then can't get training contracts at the sorts of firms they want at the end of it. Do you have a 2i/1st from a 'good' university? Sorry to be negative but I've seen a lot of good and motivated people (with good work experience) not get a job after two years hard work and fees. It's very hard with a 2ii and I don't know anybody who has become a solicitor in the past 20 years with one.... I used to be involved in the graduate recruitment process at a city firm.

The law schools will take your money quite happily so getting in isn't normally a problem.

Presumably if you are applying for a GDL now though you'll be starting in Sept 15 so that's ok if you're only paying a deposit. You could still get a training contract between now and then (for a Sept 17 start) but you will need work experience before you get that.

I agree that making IT your USP is a great idea. Try to get some work experience at a technology focused firm - you'll have an advantage to applying for training contracts at places like that if you understand their clients and their issues.

(I did the GDL and LPC years and years ago but got a training contract in my last year of university. It's harder to get in these days...)

Good luck!!

Thanks for the reply. I have a 2:1 from Cambridge. Nothing special i know but hopefully not an obstacle either.
I am researching how to get some tech firm experience before the GDL starts. Ive also applied to do GDL over 2 years, which will give more time for WE.

I understand your note of caution. But i have to give this a shot.

Well that's very impressive! You shouldn't have a problem although be prepared for a few random knock backs. But I expect if you really want to do this, and are persistent, you'll get a good TC. Try Bird & Bird, Osborne Clarke, Taylor Wessing, Bristows and a couple of magic circle firms (if you think you want that kind of life!). Out of the magic circle firms, I think Allen & Overy and Linklaters are the 'nicest' but it depends on the team you end up in and the individuals you work for... Oh, try Olswang too - they should like your background! Look at www.rollonfriday.com for a good 'inside' view on what each firm is like.

And read 'The Lawyer' online for latest news on firm mergers/departure of key teams - if the technology team is decimated by a high profile departure of a bunch of partners, it's good to know before you interview. Good luck again!!

(Age 30 is still very young - I had a trainee much closer to my mother's age than mine at one of those firms... Lots of firms actually appreciate you having had a relevant career before you start law (especially if it was at one of their clients or target clients). More grown-up trainees can often become useful more quickly.)

Oh, and read the FT before going for interviews....!

Gah - sorry, assumed you were in London... But there are loads of great regional commercial firms that do a lot of IT law. Addleshaw Goddard, DLA piper, Eversheds etc. They're all on rollonfriday.

Thank you. :-) Im based In the North East but have the opportunity to do work experience in Birmingham. There is a specialist IT firm there I've been sussing out. Unfortunately London is out of the question but location is potentially flexible (i have a supportive DH on board).

Thank you for the tips and advice. I appreciate It!

I would say definitely secure TC before LPC. A few of my course mates didn't get get TC before the LPC, paid £10,000 and then didn't get a TV, some still haven't three years later.

The GDL I found dry and long winded, but just pace yourself through it and do all the homework.

LPC on the other hand is great fun, interesting and engaging and easy to do very well in.

Good luck with your search!!

Thanks Vanitas. No question that I would do LPC without a TC.

It seems securing the TC is the biggest challenge.

What factors do you think might increase a person's chance? Or is it just a lottery?

Well a good degree from a good university will get you through the initial (sadly automatic) filter so that's good in your case. Then, you need to demonstrate you understand what being a commercial solicitor actually involves day to day - firms don't want to spend tens of thousands of pounds paying for your GDL/LPC and during your training contract if you're going to resign when you find it's not for you. The best way of proving you understand (as best you can) what you are letting yourself in for is getting good work experience at firms like the ones you want a training contract at. So apply to the regional firms for a vacation scheme. To enhance your application for that, try to talk to any contacts you can who are commercial solicitors or spend a couple of days work shadowing them if it's possible... (It's ridiculous, but to get accepted into a formal vac scheme, it helps to have had some work experience already.)

Have you worked with external lawyers in your IT career? Or even in-house ones at your company? That would help so make sure you get that into your applications if you have.

A few interesting outside hobbies might make you stand out in the application process but that's pretty low down the list of what they are looking for! Might make you more interesting to the partner interviewing you though (once you get past HR!).

By the way, I actually preferred the GDL... Although I appreciate that's unusual! It was harder work but I found it more interesting. The LPC was learning about a lot of process and mechanics but I liked some bits of it. Hated the property stuff but that's just my bias...!

Send off as many applications as you can now for vacation schemes! If you do well on those (and there's no reason you shouldn't, especially as you are used to working life!) then you'll be considered for a training contract - most firms love taking people who they have seen on a vac scheme as it's the best way of seeing what they are like and how they 'fit' to the firm's culture.

You'll be asked about whether you are prepared for long hours etc at times, so be ready for that... (Problem is that a lot of clients still expect it from their lawyers when they are working on an important deal - it won't be as crazy as city/magic circle hours but they'll still expect you to put serious hours in when necessary...)

Is it difficult to obtain a VS without any specific experience in a legal environment? Some that I have researched state that applicants must have first passed GDL.

Im unsure as to when is best. Or should i just get stuck in now and apply regardless?

Thanks for your help SAHM. (From your username i gather you're starting out on the road I've just finished. I hope youre having fun!)

My daughters did the GDL (and I did a law degree). Timing is key- you need to apply fo the TC on time. A lot of students don't seem to realise that. The good first recruit a few years ahead so generally if you're doing a law degree you would be applying during the degree for the TC which will start 2 years ahead. There are no exceptions so if you do secure that TC for firms with those timescales then you may well have a gap year in between the LPC and starting at the firm.

Many trainees are recruited from vacation schemes but my daughter was not and still got a training contract at top 10 firm in London who paid for her fees and living costs over the 2 years of the GDL and LPC.

Rergional firms may be different. Their timings may be different and they may be less likely to shell out £30k in LPC, GDL and subsistence fees to trainees as they have less money.

I would support the suggestion to read the FT. I've read it every day for 30 years and it's never done me any harm to do so. I have done lots of IT law. It's a great subject. Read all you can about it. Read all the cases in the press if that's the area you're interested in and there is a lot of free information in the press about that topic. Obviously only apply to firms which do that area of law and I am sure a good few will do so in the regions, not just London. Don't rule out London. If 30 years ago my children's father could sell his house and move careers for my training contract in London I don't see why men 30 years later should be less feminist about it.

I'm doing GDL over 2 years, part time starting Sept 2015. Then the LPC. So I would be looking for a TC commencing 2018. I have seen none advertised yet.

Im encouraged that you found it do-able to up sticks and re-locate. My concern would be that the potential disruption for my DC would be too high a price.

If you're doing it part time, then you will need to 'risk' doing the GDL before getting a TC. The firms only recruit just over 2 years in advance - that's why law undergraduates get their TC offers at the start of their final year of their degree. Some of the smaller firms might recruit a year in advance if they are asking that you only apply when you've completed the GDL. I haven't hear of that before.

Nope - I'm still a practising lawyer... Had a short career break as I wanted to spend some proper time with the children while they were still small. I work in the city - have done since law school. Should really change my user name again!

Your degree will be a huge advantage, as you went to Cambridge. Emphasise your previous experience too, you have an advantage over those coming straight from Law School, even if it's not legal experience.

A regional firm may be more family friendly. Less likely to pay for your LPC but also won't require you to work all hours! Your specialist knowledge could be a real boon for a firm.

Do you know any lawyers? They might be able to help you get work experience.

We moved just before we had children so no upheaval for them. i was 21 when I started my TC and the first baby arrived when I was 22 during the TC ( I took 2 weeks holiday to have her in and worked until I went into labour and that worked fine and it's all been so brilliant that 30 years on both daughters are also London lawyers who adore it too). We always knew I would earn more and before we married we decided my career came first. It will be slightly different if your other half earns a lot more and even a few hundred thousand a year as a law firm partner in London in IT law is going to mean you earn less than he does. Also I would not move teenagers - I think it's very unsettling once they get older to move them. Anyway plenty of good jobs outside of London.

I think it depends - if you move children to London you are giving them as massive gift of opportunities, better schools and many many more jobs. If you are moving them to rural Cornwall that uprooting might mean they get to see more cows but their life chances might be damaged due to lack of jobs and moving them to a low wage area. Mind you I know a London law firm partner and she has a house in London and a massive property with a historic garden in Cornwall you can sometimes get the best of both worlds.

I also support the fact that people who have done something first (and are bright) are very popular. In fact my second daughter said she felt she was the youngest person on the LPC. Lots of people had done something else first.

On the original question:

1. Anyone who is prepared to pay who has a 2/2 can do the GDL. It does have on it some people who will never make it in law who are gullible enough to pay when they can hardly write proper English with poor A level grades. Some obviously are good, most perhaps but there is a massive cohort who should not have paid for the course. So you will certainly get on to it.

1. For training contracts if you are trying to convince a firm you adore law it would be a good idea to do some law things. I used to go to courts in my teens just to watch. I worked in a legal advice centre at university. I had a bit of time in university holidays in a law firm - I think just 2 weeks but it helped.

Here is what a Newcastle firm's website says (m home town originally):

"Training contract applicants

We are currently accepting applications for 2016 training contracts in Plymouth, Bristol, Southampton, Leeds, Newcastle and Tees Valley. We are also accepting applications for Aberdeen training contracts to commence in September 2015. You will find the application form here. The deadline for 2016 Training Contract Applications is 31 July 2014.

Work placement scheme 2014

You will be able to apply for our work placement scheme 2014 here. The deadline for the work placement scheme is 31st January 2014

• See more at: www.bonddickinson.com/join-us/trainee-solicitors#sthash.SqS88MBN.dpuf "

And here is a London firm's to give an idea of dates:

"2017 entry Training Contract Applications: Apply between 15 October – 31 December 2014

Please note that we will be interviewing on a first come first serve basis in this application window and so early applications are strongly advised.

Undergraduates in any discipline except Law, and those studying for a Law degree which is not recognised as a qualifying Law degree by the Law Society of England and Wales. If you are unsure whether your degree falls into this category please contact the SRA for clarification. This will include people studying Law in Scotland and Ireland but who have not studied English Land Law during their degree. You should apply in your final year of undergraduate study.
Graduates of any discipline including those already studying the GDL or LPC.

Please note that candidates applying in this period must be eligible to start a training contract in either March 2017 or September 2017."

Pay etc:
"The financial benefits of working with us begin before you arrive. When you accept our offer of a training contract we will provide financial support for your law school studies.

The following pay, benefits and financial support are available:
Graduate diploma in law (GDL)

We will pay your course fees and provide a maintenance grant of £8,000 in London and £7,000 elsewhere in the UK.

If you only need to study part of the GDL, we will pay the necessary course fees and a pro-rated maintenance award.

If you accept your training contract after commencing the GDL we will pro rata your maintenance award and your course fees will be refunded in full.

Legal practice course (LPC)

For all those on the A&O accelerated LPC, you will received a maintenance grant of £7,000, and we will pay your course fees.

If you accept your training contract after commencing the LPC we will pro rata your maintenance award and your course fees will be refunded in full.

Trainee Salary

For students choosing to take the two year LLB course we offer a maximum of £5,000 towards course fees. Future trainees taking this course also receive a one-off maintenance payment of £6,000 for courses in London, Oxford & Guildford and £5,000 for courses elsewhere in the UK.

The current salary for first year trainees is £40,000 rising to £45,000 in the second year of training. The current salary on qualification is £64,000."

Thank you all for the advice and encouragement.

I'm heartened to have so many replies. I had half expected to be told not to bother since competition is so fierce. I was under the impression that an Oxbridge degree was quite standard.

I've been looking at the big London firms and have started applications for vacation schemes and open days. However, I am concerned that most ask for AAB at A Level. I have AAC. My offer from Cambridge was BBC so I didn't bother to contest the 'C' mark, though it wasn't expected.

Realistically is this likely to hold me back at this point?

I do know a few lawyers, none are close friends, so I may just take the official route and apply to as many vac schemes and open days as I can. I have had no dealings with legal teams as part of my previous roles. There aren't very many people to draw upon.

Thank you for all that info Greengrow. It must have taken enormous self belief and alot of graft to establish that sort of career and have babies at the same time. I've just finished my family and have been at home to do it, my husband has had a good few years to really plough into his career and get into his specialism (he's in IT) but now that the family is complete, it's my turn to get back out there.

BeginnerSAHM - and there was me thinking I might be in a position to offer some advice in return! Ha!

It might but don't let it trouble you. I think the first applications are on line and as long as you have enough UCAS points you can get through to the next stage. It is a while since I looked at the systems for application. My oldest got AAB (as did I) and my younger one AAC. They both qualified as solicitors in London in the last 2 years.

Also the vac schemes can be quite competitive and it is possible to get a TC without one so don't give up if you cannot get on one. My older's work experience was just a week aged 16 in a small law firm with which we had no connections and I think 3 days at the BBC legal department. She spent her university holidays working for a holiday company in Antigua which was a lot more fun than vac schemes and she did not choose law until she'd graduated.

Once you get going it might be worth reading the daily updates on IT/IP / data protection law of "lexology " (and I think I used to look at outlaw.com) as they both cover legal changes in the areas you are interested in.

I think people who have had families and work experience in a sector have a lot more to offer than some new graduates and employers recognise that too so you should do fine. My last firm used to recruit sometimes scientists with biotech PhDs who wanted to do IP law. Those people make very good lawyers as they understand the client's technology more than someone like I am who just read law. It would be the same with your IT skills. Some of the bigger Northern firms do quite a bit of public procurement work for state bodies or those supplying them so it might be worth reading a bit about what "public procurement" law is in the IT area.

Congratulations to both your daughters. Very encouraging to know it can be done without a stainless academic record. My GCSE''s are deeply average also (4 'A's, 5 'C's). Looking back I have no idea how I got into Cambridge!

I think at this point I'm going to adopt a devil may care attitude and throw myself into it. Worst that can happen is I am turned down.

IT is the area I would like to work in. The last organisation I worked for was increasingly subject to ever more complex and layered legal processes that employees (such as myself) had no control over and were given little opportunity to understand. I remember thinking many times that I would love to be in a position to work with those implementing those policies, that there was much that could be improved upon.

But clearly, I need to do a lot more reading. The landscape has probably shifted dramatically, even in just a few years. Thank you for the reading recommendations. I really do appreciate people taking the time to talk to me.