Conversion to Law

[Wannabe2015]

Hello all,

I have a simple question that I have googled/queried at length but can't find a definitive answer to.

I am applying for CPE/GDL. Do I need to have undertaken work experience in a solicitor's office/firm before submitting the application or is it acceptable to apply having lined up relevant work experience to take place before the start of the course?

I graduated in 2005 and am moving from IT background/SAHM, hoping to enter into law.
Thanks

I take your point Chunderella. I had expected that whilst Cambridge might initially open the door, it will take alot more to get my foot in the room.

My thinking is, I have the opportunity to do the GDL. If over the next 12 months i fail to secure vac schemes and TC then i will abandon plans for the LPC and look to go back to IT.

But the next 12-18 months i am going to give to trying my chances, both in London and regionally.

That all sounds like a good plan.
If any of my younger sons want to do law I will support them. I think it' s a really interesting good career and nor do I think it's impossible to get a TC, although it's hard.

My younger daughter told me about a lot of people on the GDL and LPC who could hardly write or speak proper English. So a lot of the applicants are not very bright and if they are they do not have the language skills to be get a training contract. If you remove all those people then the real competition is less although I am not saying it is easy. Over 30 years ago in another deep deep recession with schools telling children never to go into law I applied to 115 firms before I got a training contract in London and I was top of my year in law with prizes. That shows how it has never been dead easy to get in particularly in recessions; but in life hard things are often the best things.

(My older daughter went to Bristol University)

I'm almost incredulous as to how poor candidates are accepted onto GDL. The one I've applied for requires 2:1 minimum. But thats by the by, as It seems the GDL is the easy bit.

I don't have numerate academic background at all. Did a degree in Education, A Levels all arts/humanities. I got into IT quite by accident. After graduation, I considered teaching but quickly decided against it. I joined a recruitment agency and first Interview that came up Was for small telecoms company contracted to BT. Job was In 3rd line diagnostics for single user customers. I found it a very easy move and after a few months I applied to a much larger company, working on their biggest business account. I did a few roles there, finally ending up in Change management.

Since having children, I've kept my hand in with my husband's IT project, but nothing more formal.

Whether that little potted history alters your perceptions I dont know!

Yes, that all sounds fine.

They used to ration numbers at law school based on the number of training contracts -this would have been about 40 years ago and even when I went 50% of those doing the course fail. Now I think most pass. I prefer the current system because it is a free market but I can see arguments either way. You could also argue no one should pay for the GDL and LPC unless they already have a TC and that their employer will be paying all those costs. My immigrant cleaner's son is on the LPC and asked me a month ago about these issues. I think he's very bright so hopefully he'll get a TC but it's a big risk to self fund/get loans for the LPC and then not have a TC after or hope you might get a job as a paralegal and ultimately a TC. I said as I'm a risk taker and optimist I would probably do it if I were he and he's gone ahead but I do hope someone will offer him a TC. he will need to put a lot of effort into applications, work experience, volunteering and anything else. As he read law I would imagine if he had any sense he will have been making applications for at least the last year. If he hasn't that's not good.

(None of my older children went to Oxbridge. It was suggested to a few of them at school but they didn't want to put in the extra effort or did not think they would get in. Obviously I would have encouraged them if they had wanted to)

I agree it is tough to get in now. But it's not true at all that it's a standard or prerequisite to have an Oxbridge degree. I was involved in the recruitment process only about 2 years ago at a very good law firm. There were only about 10-15 universities we 'preferred' but a first from a not so 'good' one and interesting/useful previous career would have definitely been a factor. We didn't consider anybody with less than a 2i. I only saw candidates after the HR initial filter but law firms aren't totally impossible to get into if you have a decent degree and did not get straight As at A-level. I'm not going to out myself completely but I've been in the city for long enough, worked at a couple of the more blue chip places and know how a lot of them are still recruiting.

If you know some lawyers, even if not very well, ask to meet them for a quick coffee if you feel you can. Can't hurt to get a bit more inside info. Most are quite happy to talk about themselves and their career. Look at all of us...

Can I ask that very cliched question? Why did you all want to become lawyers?

I didn't have any strong interest until my company underwent a huge off-shoring programme. I got out before my role was culled. But it stuck with me and I started reading about the legal side of it. That led to some reading about IP law, with specific regard to the tech/IT industries (which impacts on my husband's work).

So I suppose I didn't care about it until it suddenly mattered in my life. Political becomes personal I guess.

What about you all? (If you're happy to share).

And thanks again for chatting, this really has been very helpful for me.

With regards to the Oxbridge question. From the little I have read, it seems firms are trying to change their culture of bias (or at least being seen to be trying to). I noticed Clifford Chance have started operating a 'CV blind' selection route by way of an essay competition to identify strong candidates that may otherwise not fulfil the standard criteria.

Other big London firms seem eager to advertise that their trainee intake are from a broad academic background, some stating they have hired alumni from 30-40 universities.

So I'm going to assume that the Cambridge degree is good, but not the sure thing it maybe once was (if indeed it ever was!)

Re Oxbridge - I was at a magic circle firm not that long ago. About 50-60% of the trainees were Oxbridge. Maybe more some intakes. There's a disproportionate representation of those two universities, obviously, but it is still generally a clear stamp of quality which explains why that many recruits have degrees from there. Of course there are exceptions - many brilliant lawyers do not have Oxbridge degrees and there are even a few with Oxbridge degrees who don't seem that clever.

Why did I want to be a lawyer? Well, I thought it would be an interesting job that I'd be good at. I can't say I ever had a grand passion to become one - so I'm not the best person to talk to enthusiastic people at the start of their legal career! I do find it interesting in parts and i generally find my colleagues great to work with, funny (believe it or not!) and bright. But, truthfully, I'd choose to do something else if I had my time again. Sounds like a few other people who have been chatting on here love their jobs though so hope they can tell you why.

I chose law because I thought it would be an interesting subject at university, my school did not really get girls through science A levels so medicine etc was out, I had seen some TV programmes about law I liked and I thought it would be well respected and well paid. It is. I was very careful to choose business law. Even 30 years ago you got paid very little if you did legal aid and high street work.

Firms just want good people and law is intellectually taxing. I feel I am paid every day for doing very difficult cross word puzzles. It's lovely but not everyone has that kind of brain so it's not surprising they want people from the better universities and you are right that law firms are trying to recruit from the widest suitable pool they can to get the best people.

I think interviewers will ask why you want to do law so it's a good idea to have some answers. I would imagine you would be likely to do better in interviews than most 20 year old law students would be though, who have never had an interview in their life, so I would not worry about that.

SAHM what would you choose to do, given the chance?

The 'why law' question seems to dog so many application forms/recruitment processes.

I'm trying to hone an answer more sophisticated than 'I liked reading about IP clashes between the big tech companies and thought I'd love to have a bash at that'!

On a very personal level, I just want to get out of the house, work hard, compete and earn some money. For my girls, for my husband, for me. I doubt that's going to sway any interviewing panel however.

I was expecting to be laughed at for that IT clashes comment!

Asylum/immigration must be very challenging work I imagine.

A lot of solicitors/barristers don't seem overly enthused by what they do. I guess I should that as a note of caution.

I guess I should heed that as a note of caution

Over a family lunch this summer though everyone present was very enthused about their work and 3 of us are lawyers.

I just think some people are miserable whatever they do and like a moan and others are more positive. If you compare law with heaps of other jobs it's miles better on all kinds of scores.

Yes, I can see how the hideous working hours can make even the most generous perks feel redundant.

There are a lot of deeply unhappy people in IT with similar complaints about long hours, stress, pressure. My DH is in a position where he is almost ready to go it alone, with his own software and consultancy. The pressures are there, but the autonomy makes it seem more worthwhile.

As has been said, there are unhappy people in all walks of life.

I think my job is ok! Just don't love it. V happy with everything else in my life actually and the job is interesting enough. (Would be much more interesting if I went back to unpredictable crazy hours but I'm choosing not to so I can see more of my children.)

How long were you a SAHM, Beginner? Did you find the transition back to work went smoothly?

Just a year as a SAHM. I did like it! But we have a mortgage etc. and I also like using my brain intellectually - found I wasn't doing much of that at home. Besides, it was only ever intended to be a short term arrangement... I'd probably choose my to work at all if money were no object. Or less of an object . (Although I would worry about being a stereotypical female role model for the children... Not that there is anything wrong with being a SAHM - I just don't want them thinking that is what 'most' women do.)

Oh - and the transition back to work was fine. Quite easy really!! Have lovely childcare in place 4 days a week and I'm at home 3 days.

I'm involved in recruiting trainees. You're right that a Cambridge degree is good but it's certainly not enough on its own. In addition to academics (2:1 is a minimum) we look for signs that a candidate is balanced, interesting, able to click with people (in the office but also clients) and commercial.

I'd definitely use the next year to find ways to tick those boxes if you don't already. Get a job involving customer service, and think about the solicitor-client relationship: what skills are required? How can you prove that you have them? Take the Economist, read it every week and be prepared to talk about politics, commerce and history. Show commitment to hobbies, eg sports, music. Take on positions of responsibility. It's good to get into these things properly, or it will show at interview that you were doing it cynically in order to pad your CV.

Make sure you ace the GDL. Commendations are respected (you see fewer of them than 2:1s; it genuinely means you have potential in the field for which you're applying) and distinctions are positively rare. Write articles on legal topics you love, and try and submit them for publication.

Balance your interest in IP/tech with an open mind in respect of the other departments which you'll train in. We want people who work hard wherever they are sat, and it's often the case that their natural skills lie in a different department.