Has your partner taken paternity leave recently?

[Tom]

Dear mumsnetters

I wonder if I could ask your help...
I need to find a few couples where dad has recently taken paternity leave, to get some quotes and stories for a major speech by the govt minister who introduced paternity leave - Patricia Hewitt (the minister for women).

I'd be particularly interested in dads who would not have been able to get time off after the birth had it not been for the introduction of the new law (perhaps because their employer would have said no), and also couples where the two weeks off were a particularly positive experience - for example, if mum had a traumatic birth and because of the two weeks off, the dads presence after the birth was really helpful, or perhaps dads who really took the opportunity to get stuck into the baby care during the initial two weeks, providing them with a solid start in terms of confidence and competence as far as looking after the baby.

If anyone has a good story to tell, please could you respond on the thread or email me at [email protected]

Mucho appreciated.

Yes, but if you think of parental or paternity leave as an essential outgoing you are more likely to think you can afford it.

In Sweden men do get a month on full pay and not many of them take it. I think 60-70% of fathers take some of it, but that is often just a few days. Which suggests it is not actually just money which stops men taking time off.

My dh runs a small enterprise but doesn't own it - hence he works very flexibly and is paid very badly. He took time off sneakily to be with me and ds. I don't think paternity leave would make much difference, though he'd probably take it now.
MI did you get ANYTHING in maternity benefits? As a freelancer I don't think I would be entitled to anything at all which makes me BOIL with anger as I certainly pay my tax.

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Register? Nobody told me anything about registering? I've told the Inland Revenue...does that count?

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Do you get the money if you are earning bits here and there during the time or do you have to earn zilch to qualify? Don't answer if I'm being cheeky but my freelancer friends all assume they get nothing. Though as we've all said, £100 a week is pathetic.

I seem to remember from the dim and distant past when I worked, that women who didn't qualify for statutory maternity pay could get a different benefit through the benefit system. My husband has only just started a new job and our baby is due in 3 weeks so he hasn't fulfilled the 26 weeks of employment he needs to qualify for SPP. Does anyone know if there is a similar alternative for men as there is/was for women?

Aloha, we are entitled to some money. With dd1 I got SMP, I seem to remember: £100/week for a set number of weeks. I'm now a limited company (being my size, very limited indeed)so wasn't entitled to that but was entitled to claim something else my very lovely accountant sorted out which came to about the same thing.

Fennel, I think there are several issues here. One is fathers' frequent refusal to accept that effective parenting means losing out at work (and before Tom cites the statistics about how much more they have to lose financially, and how the culture of work makes it harder for the poor lads, can I repeat my point - shared no doubt by many of us - that that's tough, boys, how do you think we coped, get on the daddy track and we'll all gain eventually). That refusal is well-documented.

But I don't think it's fair to suggest that we should just count parental leave as an 'essential outgoing'. I think parental leave, like childcare, should be accepted as far more of a corporate/social responsibility, because we are all as a society responsible towards our children.

And I pay a cleaner, but most of my outgoings are on childcare.

Fennel I really do see your point. But my point is that we have fixed outgoings which have to be met. We could afford to live on less if we had a smaller house and only one car (but then I would have to stop work) - but we cannot be like this for two weeks only. If DH took the £100 second week instead of taking a week's leave we would have to forgo the holiday I booked yesterday (a week in a caravan in Cornwall which DS is looking forward to already). And DH would have an extra week's annual leave to spend at home but no money to do things. So in our case I don't think it would be fair on DS.

I totally agree that parental leave and childcare should be accepted as corporate social responsibility.

Not trying to get at individual fathers here I know it's not easy for them, even if they can afford it it's still unacceptable to employers, colleagues, etc. Just making the point that money is only one of the reasons for many people and gendered assumptions about which partner's paid work is more important and who is a natural childcarer are also big reasons. assumptions by government, employers, society and by the couples themselves.

The cost of childcare is the one which makes me want to give up in despair, and I love my job.

Well, I can see why Tom needed our help - he posted this message on fathers direct on 23/2 and has so far been inundated with exactly zero replies! Shame on the boys! Come on Tom, there have been many calls for a comment from you ( or Patricia Hewitt ) where are you?

Of course childcare should be tax-deductible. I had a friend who paid her nanny as her assistant, and claimed it all against tax. But of course, she didn't need an assistant, she needed a nanny. I am so angry that you can claim your chauffeur's wages against tax, but not your childminder's.

I took three months unpaid leave after the birth of first ds. As a freelance I was lucky enough to be able to turn down work during that time and live off savings. DP is freelance as well and got the maternity benefit mentioned.

Think £100/week for spl is scandal but agree that society forces families into the situation where the mother is seen as primary caregiver and suffers subsequent erosion of ability to work and contribute financially to family life. For some people that will not be an issue as they may not see it that way. My dp had good career before birth, but has hardly worked since as cannot accept contracts at short notice which used to make up huge amount of her work. DS now 18 months. I am "breadwinner" (for want of better word) by default and am forced to accept contracts that take me away from home because that is only way to ensure stable income. Am sure lots of people in similar position.

The swedish system seems much fairer and encouorages a different attitude across board to parenting.

Sorry for length of post, close to heart this one. First post too.

My dh doesn't get a very generous annual leave allocation, so we did use a week's paternity leave at £100 when dd was born (on top of a fortnight's annual leave). I'd be reluctant to commend this to Tom or Ms Hewitt as a "success story" as we took a hard financial hit to fund it - as others have said, losing both incomes albeit temporarily, is not easy. Dh did enjoy the extra massive week at home with his new expanded family but is still tearing his hair out about finances.
I utterly agree that childcare expenses should be tax-deductible. I'd be able to go part-time if they were. And also agree that the Government should look harder at the Swedish model.

Hallo, Tom, can you hear us?????????

Dear all

This is AMAZING! Thank you soo much for all your input - it is invaluable - really.

To be honest I had not expected many contributions, and had completely forgotten about this thread until I looked tonight. I have a meeting at the DTI tomorrow which prompted me and it's amazing, so I am currently printing off this thread and will put it on the desk of the people at the DTI who are advising her.

I think it's really important to acknowledge that the low rate of pay for paternity leave makes it very difficult for men to take this time off. Fathers are responsible for, on average, 2/3rds of family income in the UK, and a family just can't afford to lose that kind of money at such an expensive time as having a baby.

I will be pressing them to make the two weeks of paternity leave paid at 90% of pay - just as the first six weeks of maternity leave are.

I find it incredible that companies have actually REDUCED their paternity provision after the introduction of the statutory leave! That was NOT the intention of the legislation at all, and I think its a shameful practice that the DTI should know about. The intention of the legislation is to provide a statutory minimum - with provision over and above this minimum encouraged - we recommend two weeks at full pay for all companies, and many do provide this. But to actually reduce the paternity provision of your company is quite incredible - prufrock - I would love to hear about this to get more information - could you drop me a line at [email protected] - I feel like naming and shaming that company!

Interestingly, the DTI has not had figures for the take-up of paternity leave yet - the figures will come from the inland revenue and include the paye figures which won't be calculated until later in the year. The government accountants initially predicted a 70% take-up by new fathers, and it will be interesting to see whether this level has been reached. If your experiences are anything to go by, then I think they may be considerably under that figure. From my perspective, that's bad, in that not as many fathers are at home in the first fortnight as we'd been hoping, but it's also good, in that it effectively proves that unless the pay is linked to income, fathers (and mothers, and babies) will not benefit.

THANK YOU SO MUCH ALL OF YOU!!! ANY MORE EXPERIENCES WELCOME!!!!

Tom

Might the take-up of patenity leave be linked to when the mother started maternity leave? If I start my maternity leave as soon as I can (29 weeks) then by the time the baby is born then I'll be on £100 a week. If my partner then takes paternity leave he'll also be on £100 a week for those two weeks so we'd be really broke.

However if I work as late as possible then I'll still be on 90% so we can probably afford for him to be be on £100 a week for 2 weeks.

So pregnant women are pushed into working later and tiring themselves out more so their partners can take paternity leave.

Grr - want the Swedish system anyway as 2weeks vs. 52 weeks is just damn sexist.

I'm sure the British cultural way of thinking is that paternity leave is a rather frivalous luxury rather than a necessity.

My dh took just under 4 months off when dd was born (I had only about a month longer off), and it was the most wonderful thing he could ever have done. That time was incredibly precious, and as a result he now does certainly 50% of the childcare, if not more, because it's always been both of our jobs, not just mine.

He's self employed so logistically it was fairly easy. Thankfully it doesn't seem to have affected his career but he's a very big fish in a small pond these days. God knows how we afforded it, I think we earned less than £10k between us that year, but it was definitely worth it.

Good luck with the argument, Tom.

I feel like a late-comer but do feel I want to respond to Elliot....whether or not individuals posting here can afford to take paternity leave at £100 a week is not really the point: the point is that, as it stands the provision is clearly discriminatory, in that it is really only effectively available to the (relatively) well-off middle classes.

Other points of relevance - two weeks is nothing! Having children is incredibly hard work and it certainly doesn't stop being hard work after two weeks. From personal experience and many conversations with mums I believe passionately that the incidence of post-natal depression could be drastically cut by mechanisms that gave mothers the help, support and company they need (and who better to give that than their partner?)

Another issue is the informal way in which employers avoid their responsibilities, by applying subtle pressure. I know one father who simply felt unable to approach his employer about taking paternity leave - he flew to the states for meetings when his wife was still in hospital after a section. I know of another father, who mentioned verbally, that he might need to take some unpaid parental leave (different, I know) in order to give his wife some help with their 4 month old twins and was told that making such a request wouldn't be "advisable".

Such employers are effectively imposing on the women partners of their male employees by not allowing their male employees to take a full and active role in their children's upbringing. They are perpetuating the idea- and practice - that children are women's work. Fathers (including my two friends, mentioned above) need to stop tolerating this. And the government needs to find ways of ensuring against it.

I think the sad truth, at least in our household, is that men wouldn't be interested in taking months of to care for their babies. I think my DH thought it was rather nice to "escape" to work during the days (and excuse to sleep during the nights). I think we need some political pressure and for the governments to try to enforce paternity leave as I am not sure even if the "new man of today" is that interested really.......

I am not sure if it is all about money. I think the main concern is the impact on the father's career.

Yes, I do think a lot of the problem is our idea of a 'normal' career: full-time to the point where it extends well outside the accepted working week. Women have deviated from this, but at a cost: we haven't, as a society, re-shaped the idea of work and careers as a whole.

And if you ask me it really is only going to happen when the boys accept that yes, their career prospects ARE going to be affected if they leave work on time or cut their working hours or point out that they do have a life; and still go for it.

Personally, I could do without employers who assume they can make demands on my (male) dp in the way they wouldn't, I think, do to a woman; because the assumption is that I'll pick up the childcare slack.

Hatter, I've seen a case cited of a big employer who referred to paternity leave as a means to 'weed out the losers'.

Mother Inferior, I agree with you completely. My DH was paying a lot of lip service to being a hands-on dad and contributing a full 50% to child care (this will be our first).
When I then demanded that he take 2 months pat leave his face told different story. 'What about work, what will they think of me,' he whined. His trump card, of course, was 'we can't afford it, I won't be paid.'

The story now is that we're saving for his unpaid leave and sacrificing other unecessary luxuries. It's important for me to have his support (what the hell do I know about raising kids?!) and it's vital for him to have a prolonged period of parental responsibility so he can bond with his baby.

Funnily enough, his boss is supportive and some of the other dads admit they wished they'd had the guts to stand up and say that, for a short period, family is waaaaay more important than work.

As a society, we need to re-shape our blinkered views that women are the only sex capable of looking after babies. Yep, we breast feed and it takes time, hence maternity leave - but why should that exclude men from prolonged parental leave? They've got a crucial role to fill, and that role should no longer just be a glorified babysitter.

As women, we need to find the courage to walk out of the house and leave men to it, without criticism of their mistakes. Yeah, they make mistakes! But so do we! Give them a chance to do things their way instead of bossing them around, and I think maybe more men would be keen to take parental leave.

Mind you, when my post-natal hormones kick in my opinions may chnage

"Fathers (including my two friends, mentioned above) need to stop tolerating this."

Quite. And as the main earner by a long way in our household, I have absolutely no time whatsoever for the can't afford it, provider pressure arguments either. I have to find a way to afford it, I have to find a way to provide. Why can't the men?

Motherinferior, I am sure that some of my dh's colleagues thought that he was a "loser" and wondered why I couldn't cope on my own. I know my then boss was very surprised that a man should voluntarily spend time with a new baby. He intimated that he must be some kind of pervert and I shouldn't leave him alone with the baby. People can be very weird can't they!