Not allowed to carry over annual leave ?

[BabiesEverywhere]

Shortish version of my situation.

Got hasseled at work by line manager, Director and Director of HR, for trying to attend relaxation maternity classes that fell during the work day. Despite other staff members getting this time off paid, I was not allowed to take the time unpaid, or as annual leave or to work the hours back. Oh and I do have a doctors note saying that she recommends that I do these classes, which HR said was irrelevant and didn?t affect my case at all. (PS. I met a pregnant lady who works for my branch of the NHS and she is getting three classes off and paid every week (including the relaxation class I wanted) so she can have 6 hours a week off and yet I?m being unreasonable trying to work around 2 hours. It so upsetting that getting access to these classes etc totally depends on who and how nice your line manager is)

Ended up off work with stress, due to the meetings when I was out numbered 3 to 1 and being shouted at and told how unreasonable I was being etc.

Whilst I was signed of sick I was bothered at home with phone calls and email to my personal accounts and my private mobile number, by the Director who wanted me back at work...I lost of a lot of weight due to lack of sleep and eating because I felt so bullied. My midwife wanted me to stay off work as she was concerned about the affect on my health.

Went back to work a few weeks later (against doctors advice) to be shouted at by line manager again, as I requested via health and safety to be exempt from a piece of work which involved carrying heavy equipment up stairs and climbing up and under desks to wire in stuff.

Please note this work was NOT part of my regular job just done as a favor, plus they exempted a 3 month pregnant girl from this piece of work last year but wanted me to still do it at 6.5 months pregnant and they have two other members of staff who are equally trained up in how to do this work !!!

Went back off work sick again and I'm now signed off until I am 37 weeks pregnant, though the doctors don't want me to go back until after the baby is born (neither do I)

So I am trying to sort out my maternity leave date and outstanding annual leave.

Having trouble arranging maternity date thoughout this saga, as I was told that the decision was up to my line manager not me, as to when I went on maternity. My line manager told me any date she agreed would not be set in stone, as if any work came in, I would have to work a week or two to complete it before I went on maternity leave. Which I feel is unreasonable as I wanted to go off at 37 weeks, hardly early.

I have been speaking to HR regarding my annual leave, as I have 6 weeks to take. Partly as my line manager has been refusing my annual leave requests when I was in work, HR knew this but said they couldn?t help and that annual leave was at the discretion of my line manager.

I have requested to take 3 weeks before I go on maternity leave i.e. weeks 37 to 40 (even though the doctors will sign a note for this time if I asked but I felt it was fair to do what I would have done, if I had not had any problems at work), HR have agreed I can take.

But they have told me I can not take the other three weeks at all. This is a precious three weeks which I wanted to spend after the birth with my newborn baby and I am very upset that I can?t have it.

HR have said that I can not take it between my paid and unpaid maternity leave, they will not carry it over to the next financial year nor pay me the holiday instead but that they?ll compromise. I asked what comprise is available and they said they would have to think about it, but if I can?t take, transfer or get paid what other option is there ?

I am so sick of this situation. I am half way though writing a grievance about my situation regarding the line manager and director (not that work know that yet) with the help of the union rep and I suppose I?ll just add this to the end of it.

Is there anything I should be doing to retrieve my annual leave or is HR right that I have to lose it ?

Plate of cyber chocolate biscuits to anyone that managed to read this massive post without dropping asleep ;)

Sorry didn;t manage to read in detial but skim read - there are far too many issues going on here for an amateur to advise you on. You MUST raise this with your union and get it all sorted at the same time.

are you in a union ? Sounds llike very unfair treatment - and also like your line manager has problems managing.

If not - maybe contact the CAB for advice on your entitlement.

Gosh they sound AWFUL.

Not sure if this helps (and I donlt want to make you feel worse) but when I went on mat leave I took a month of my maternity leave before (I had 25 weeks paid and could take up to a year with the rest being unpaid (after the 6 weeks statutory) and none of this was holiday.

I came back within the same year but tagged 3 of my 5 weeks holiday on the end and that was no problem at all. That left me with 2 weeks to take for the Christmas period.

If I had decided to come back post Xmas when the new holiday allocation started I would have been allowed to carry over this holiday and tag that onto the end of my mat leave AND still have my new holiday allocation. I am sure that by law this has to be the case.

Any days that I took off for my pregnancy that were related to midwife / courses etc etc were paid and did not come out as holiday since again by law I'm sure they have to allow you to do this.

All this business about not telling you when you can go and how long you can take etc etc is bullshit. I'm not a lawyer but it all sounds really bad and I really think that you are being bullied at work for whatever resaon and that you should definitely proceed with the grievance process.

Poor you. I think it's definitely time to find a new job

Definitely see CAB/Union/ACAS - your line manager/director's behaviour is completely unacceptable. Who do you work for? Scrooge & Marley Associates?

Thanks for the nice posts, yes I really need a new job and the punchline is that I currently work for the 'caring' NHS

I have contacted the union rep regarding the earlier stuff and I'm writing a grievance to address the earlier points.

I am waiting to phone back an employment lawyer (when she gets back from lunch)about the latest annual leave saga

Nasty situation. Not doubting your word at all, but it's so strange it's difficutl to believe thta this is happening! You definitely need professional help here, as I'm sure that some of these things are downright illegal.

AFAIK:

Pregnant women are entitled to paid time off to attend classes and non-medical treatment related to pregnancy and birth.

Holidays are at the discretion of your manager, but if you are not allowed to take time off, then the company is obliged to buy those days back by giving you payment in lieu.

Maternity leave date is not up to the manager at all, as, negotiate what you will, if you are ill after a certain point the maternity leave kicks in automatically.

HR are legally required to do a H&S risk assessment for pregnant women, to ensure that you are not exposed to anything hazardous or do any phsycial work that might harm you or your baby.

Check out your home insurance, as you may have legal representation that you may be able to consult on this. It really sounds like a mixture of your legal rights being utterly ground underfoot, as well as being bullied by your manager.

Go to the papers luv, since it's the 'lovely' NHS you're working for.
(((((HUGS)))). Hope you get it sorted soon.

You do have to wonder if there is not a hidden agenda with the area where you are working. Don;t want to mamke you even more paranoid but either they are just downright nasty people or they have an agenda and are trying to push it as far as they can.

There is no 'hidden agenda' but we are aware that there will be many redundances in July 07, as the latest NHS changes come into place.

But in the meantime my work needs doing and there is no return in not having me at work, so I'm at a loss as to why this situation has occured.

I have worked for the same person for several years and I had no problems until I told her I was expecting.

My advice would be to go on to the ACAS web site and read all the legislation / advice on there ( start here and then serch from there), then print off all the info you get and approach your HR dept with that in hand- Dh found it useful to leave a copy in the HR in tray a day befopre he approached them too (we had problems with flexible working hours).

BabiesEverywhere the way you are being treated is a pile of shite!

I work for NHS too (as a Risk Manager!!) and if your Dr says you need to attend something they have to let you attend it - even if unpaid leave.
We ahve a policy for expectanta nd BFing mothers which allows for risk assessmenst and change sto working patterns etc

Your mat leave is IN NO WAY at managers discretion, although A/L is...but if they have actively stopped you using your full entitlement before then end of a leave year then they should pay you back...

Get copies of your organisations maternity policies, H&S policies and risk assessment/occupational health policies...if you can't get them easily by just asking, ask fo rthem under the Freedom of Information Act...they HAVE to give them to you...if youdon't wnat to ask under your own name...get DH/DP.BF whoever to do it for you...these are PUBLIC documents

You could also let the Health and Safety Executive know about this treatment..unless you woork for my PCT, in which case just tell me and I'll sort it out!!!!!!

I have just got off the phone from speaking to a lovely lady on the Acas Helpline.

She says sadly I have to take my annual leave within this financial year and at my companies discretion they might choose to pay me or carry over the time but as I have already had a flat no on both these suggestions already, it looks like I'll be losing out on this annual leave

She did say that she thought my line manager hasd acts right out of order and gave me a number for the equal oppurnities department, so I'll try them next.

JessaJam, which PCT do you work for ?

It's in Cornwall...based near Bodmin

Hang on a sec BE, if "at my companies discretion they might choose to pay me or carry over the time" how can they give you an outright 'no' to both suggestions? They must either pay you or give you leave!

PC is right I'm sure....

I agree, they HAVE to pay you or let you carry it over. Whilst on Mat leave you acrue you annual leave too.

JessaJam...darn about 250 miles away from us then. We went to Cornwall for our honeymoon lovely place.

Companies don;t have to pay your annual leave you haven't taken or let you take it unless its in your employment contract. Your only case would be if your manager was unreasonable in not letting you take your holiday when you asked for it - I would think that your case for claiming they are being unreasonable is a good one unless they can claim that taking you holidays when you want them materially affects the business.

Most employment contracts state that your employer needs to approve when you take your holiday.

As I said before this is a complex area - your union needs to be involved, most peoples views will be distorted by what a reasonable employer would do not what your employer is legally bound to do. ACAS is telling you the legal position but there is a huge grey area in the realms of what is reasonable consent/non-consent to your holiday. Your union should have employment specialists who can deal with this for you.

which trust are you at BE?

My PCT is a Yorkshire one but I would rather not be more specfic, in case anyone who I work with reads this

So sorry they're giving you even more hassle.

Get the union lady you've spoken to before involved. If you can't get hold of her then ring the head office.

AFAIK they can't take your annual leave without recompense, you are legally entitled to annual leave regardless of sickness/pregnancy.

Just a thought or did they refuse to allow you the leave and refuse to pay you for it in the same conversation. If not, then it's entirely possible that they have forgotten earlier conversations they have had with you, even though it it very unprofessional it is very possible.

If they pay you for the lost leave then you can take another three weeks unpaid ML.

REMEMBER THAT THEY CANNOT DICTATE WHEN YOU START OR END YOUR ML. IT IS YOUR LEGAL RIGHT TO MAKE THIS DECISION YOURSELF.

Add it to your greivance and get it in as soon as possible.

Lots of love & hugs and thanks for the cyber choccy biccy

Just wondered if it was one where I knew anyone...in case I could be of help! Understand reluctance!

Please don't let them get away with treating you like this, at best it is totally unprofessional and cack-handed of them, at worst it is illegal and dangerous ( very worried about refusal to adapt your manual handling duties to take pregnancy into account..tsk tsk!)

Do get the PCTs policies and stuff ( half the time they don't even know what they put in them ) so you can refer them to their own policies and use them to work out what you really are entitled to...

good luck and I really hope things start to go your way soon...these things shouldn't rely on having a reasonable boss (that is why they have policie sinthe first place!)

BE I am off home now and won't be able to call you tonight, so sorry, but after last night's shenanigans I need to talk to dh (thankfully we have cleared the air and so it should be OK). Also it is three years today since we went on the rollercoaster in our posh frocks so I have planned a nice meal for after dd goes to bed.

Lots of love and hugs coming your way though xx

Oh and have you seen the banner at the top of this page? Might be worth giving Russel Jones & whoever a call, they seem to specialise in maternity discrimination.

God, this makes me furious. And poor you getting all of this hassle when

Quite a lot of what they are doing is illegal - the two things I know for definite is that you are allowed to take time off for all ante-natal classes, and this specifically includes relaxation classes, and that the way that they have treated the manual handling thing is also illegal. And, as has been said, it is entirely up to you when you take your maternity leave. Plus much of the rest of the bullying etc would also be classed as grounds for constructive dismissal/sex discrimination if you went to a tribunal.

Am surprised that ACAS are not being more assertive - do you have a local union rep you can talk to? And definitely talk to the equal ops people - because of your pregnancy, this all comes under sex discrimination.

You need professional advice - but when you have that, I think you also need to go back to your HR department and point out that they are breaking the law. You can probably get an hour with a solicitor for free - and also check your insurance policy/credit cards etc to see if you are covered for legal fees.

In the longer term, you perhaps also need to decide whether you want to go back to this job. If you don't, I would seriously consider (subject to legal advice etc etc) handing in your notice and taking them to a tribunal, as you'd probably get a reasonable payout - and it's not going to look great for the NHS.

hth