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Original poster

Signed off sick working a second job.

27 replies

Addicted88 · 08/10/2013 18:56

I was signed off with my primary job (NHS) with stress caused by that employment. My GP informed me to keep busy and not just sit around the house, so I worked a second job which didn't cause me any stress and in honesty my return to my NHS job a lot quicker.

However now apparently I have commuted fraud? Work haven't said anything yet but no doubt it will happen.

Any advice wether I have actually committed fraud or I was wrong to work a second job would be brilliant.

Thank you in advance.

OP posts:
flowery · 08/10/2013 19:50

What do you mean "apparently" you committed fraud? Confused

If you received a fit note signed by your GP saying you were not fit to complete the duties of your main job at all, but were fit to complete the duties of the second job, and you had permission from your main job to take the second job, then I'd say you were fine.

However if you were signed off sick from one job (presumably receiving sick pay of some description), and took another job during that time, I would imagine you'll be in some hot water, yes.

Original poster
Addicted88 · 08/10/2013 20:03

Thank you.

OP posts:
nevergoogle · 08/10/2013 20:12

yes you have committed fraud. i witnessed this exact situation in the NHS and the professional was dismissed for gross misconduct. I doubt very much that the person will ever work for the NHS again.

MrsMaryCooper · 08/10/2013 20:13

Yes you committed fraud. You were receiving sick pay from your NHS job, (and presumably they were having to pay for back fill to cover your post) whilst you were working and pocketing money from another job.

That is gross misconduct and you could be sacked.

Floggingmolly · 08/10/2013 20:16

Instant dismissal, I'm afraid, I've seen it happen. Why did you imagine the NHS would be happy to give you sick pay while you worked elsewhere? Hmm

Featherbag · 08/10/2013 20:16

Did you follow your Trust's secondary employment policy? They will have one, every Trust does. It usually states you have to inform them of taking a second job, that your NHS post takes priority, etc. A friend of mine was sacked for exactly your situation, but reinstated as the secondary employment policy was a bit woolly-worded, it's now been rewritten so there's no room for doubt.

CaptainSweatPants · 08/10/2013 20:19

Hope you've still got the second job as it doesn't sound line the nhs job is for you anyway

Tailz · 08/10/2013 20:21

Forgive me if I'm being thick but why not just do voluntary work of some sort and keep busy that way?

You're being paid (sick pay) and whilst I understand you not wanting to be inside all day, I don't understand working for a second employer or why you'd thing it was acceptable.

Tailz · 08/10/2013 20:22

*think not thing!

nevergoogle · 08/10/2013 21:17

sorry OP, that you're not going to get the news you want. This can only be adding to your stress levels so you're going to need some support. i think it's possible to unwittingly have made this mistake, but unfortunately HR will not view it this way.

hope you're ok.

Bunbaker · 08/10/2013 21:29

Quite apart from the legalities of it, I expect most people would think that if you were well enough to work at a second job you would be fit enough to go back to your day job.

Sorry, but why on earth did you think this would be OK?

VivaLeThrustBadger · 08/10/2013 21:33

I know someone who did this, exactly the same scenario and also nhs.

It is fraud, she was told it was fraud and given the biggest bollocking ever. She kept her job which to be honest surprised me. But she pleaded ignorance and begged forgiveness and they gave her the benefit of the doubt.

Has your nhs job found out?

flowery · 08/10/2013 22:06

"i think it's possible to unwittingly have made this mistake"

I really don't think it is tbh. Is anyone really that absolutely 100% certain that taking another job while on paid sick leave from a main job is so clearly absolutely fine that they don't even feel the need to just check whether there is a policy on second jobs or mention it to their manager or HR? Really?

No, the only reason someone wouldn't hesitate and just double check it was fine, or mention it to their manager is because they know very well it probably isn't fine.

Vatta · 08/10/2013 22:21

I can sort of imagine somebody doing this legitimately if the two jobs were very different - eg the nhs job is A&E nursing, super stressful, op can't cope with it for a while, and the second job is something extremely relaxing like...um....thinks of relaxing jobs....flower arranging, that was calm enough?

OP, your best bet now is to be fully open with your nhs job, explain why you felt (on the basis of medical advice) that you couldn't do your main job, but could do the other job, and apologise for not discussing it with hr at the time.

nevergoogle · 08/10/2013 22:34

well no, of course nobody would be that certain because to be certain you would have to have read the policy and you'd find out it's a big no-no. but, i think if you're too stressed to work you may not be thinking all that straight. I don't know, i'm trying to offer some support to OP here as I can't imagine the pressure she's under right now and none of us know her circumstances or if she has RL support.

Personally, when I got signed off work with stress a few years ago, I spoke to HR and occ health to check that it was ok for me to go out riding my bike to manage my stress levels as sitting around doing nothing wasn't helping at all. the sensible thing to do is to check. but OP didn't and now is in a whole heap of crap. Hindsight is a fabulous thing though so having a pop at OP is pointless.

Vatta · 09/10/2013 08:23

I agree nevergoogle, op may not have been at her best (and may have been so stressed with her work situation that it was difficult to speak to them?).

We all make mistakes

flowery · 09/10/2013 08:45

No one is having a "pop". The OP asked for opinions on whether it was fraud and also whether she was wrong to do it, and she has got those opinions. I also think some realistic advice on how her employer are likely to view this is helpful, although of course she is free to ignore that if she doesn't find it helpful.

I'm sure if she does get into trouble and posts asking for support she will get it.

Original poster
Addicted88 · 09/10/2013 22:55

Sorry if I
Caused any confusion the second job
Isn't paid it is voluntary.

Sorry if I mislead these Answers. Does
It matter if it's voluntary?

OP posts:
VivaLeThrustBadger · 10/10/2013 05:36

I'd have thought if its voluntary then its less of an issue. It can't be fraud as there's no sick pay vs wages issue. I guess your employer might still not be impressed but if you tell them that you thought it was helping, etc then what can they say?

User3433399 · 10/10/2013 08:23

What kind of voluntary job is it?

As your employer I'm not sure I'd differentiate between a paid and unpaid job, as you've handed in a note saying you're not fit for work, but you are still able to function in another workplace while receiving paid leave.

I fully understand that the stress caused by your NHS job won't be present at the second job BUT your employer could well take the view of 'why should I pay you to go off and enjoy your voluntary work?'. I suspect your GP probably meant going for walks, chatting with friends and digging the garden by 'keeping busy'.

I think as it wasn't paid work it might be viewed more leniently, but receiving sick pay for being unfit for work while presenting at another workplace could still be viewed as gross misconduct, if not fraud. As your line manager honestly I'd take a very dim view. Sorry. Probably the best thing you can do is call HR and inform them that you think you've made a genuine mistake, which might work in your favour.

LIZS · 10/10/2013 08:28

yes technically you were fulfilling an obligation to another company whether paid or not. I would think it raises suspicion about whether you were in fact fit to work at very least. Did you tell your employer ? How do you know it is being considered as fraud if none has yet approached you.

flowery · 10/10/2013 10:55

I'm interested in who has told you this is fraud?

The fraudulent aspect wouldn't be taking money from two places in this instance, it would be taking sick pay when you were fit to work. You may well have been not fit to work your main job while being fit to work another job, but the crucial thing is you didn't get yourself a fit note saying that.

if your GP is happy to write you a letter confirming that you were not fit to complete your normal duties but were fit to do this voluntary work, which in fact aided your speedy recovery then that will help.

Your voluntary duties being significantly different from your main duties would also help, if that was the case.

Original poster
Addicted88 · 11/10/2013 07:28

I haven't been told via work yet that I am under investigation however a close friend has informed me the NHS fraud team are looking into me.

The two jobs are very different and my 2nd job
Doesn't cause me
Any stress. Also In all honesty i think this would be classed as helping a friend out more Than actually working as it was a event I went to which I enjoy the social aspect of watching and or attending.

Like I said I was signed off with stress not to be bed bound for 3 weeks.

OP posts:
M1SSUNDERSTOOD · 11/10/2013 18:30

Yes you can, but you need to be careful. You should be able to demonstrate that your second job offsets the stress caused by your first, and is in a completely different environment and your Gp has made a clause on the fit note to accommodate your second job.

handcream · 11/10/2013 18:36

Flowery is very good isnt she! Always asks the direct questions.

I was too wondering why you are flagging now. I suspect most of us know that if you are off sick with one role you cannot take another. However I am wondering. If it isnt paid does that make a real difference. It sounds as though it does.

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