Nurseries versus Childminders

[Annalise]

Hi, this is my first post, and I was hoping some of you will be able to tell me your views, and help me out on a difficult decision.

I am due to go back to work soon, and I have decided to go back full time (I was part-time before I had my second son), mainly for money reasons.

My parents will look after both my sons for 3 days, and the other two days I need to find childcare for them.

My problem, is, as you may have guessed, I can't decide between a Childminder or a Private nursery.

My eldest son is 2, and my younger one is 5 months. I like the idea of more activities and interaction with other children for my eldest, as he would get at a nursery. But I worry about my youngest not getting enough one-to-one and attention in a nursery baby room.

On the other hand, a Childminder would probably be able to give my little one more one-to-one, and I feel (well, hope) it would be a more 'loving' environment than in a nursery where you get staff changes, etc.

My concerns about a Childminder, however, probably stem from a lot of these tv programmes you see about 'nannies from hell', etc.
I feel really worried about leaving my boys in the sole care of someone who is completely unsupervised, and could lose her temper with them, mistreat them, or worse. Obviously I would meet them first and have visits, but the people who's children were abused and mistreated on these programmes thought their nanny was ok, and trusted her when they met her.

Sorry, I am probably being a really paranoid and over-the-top mum here, but I can't stop worrying about it.

Can anyone tell me their experiences of Nursery/Childminder and how contented their children are there to allay my fears?

GillW. sounds like you have the ideal nursery.

Unfortunately where I live there are two big chains of nurseries, one has 5 in the city alone plus others on the outskirts, they have 150 places each in 2 of them and between 75-100 in the others. They are always shortstaffed and very rigid in their approach to anything. They are desperate to fill their places and are offering one month's free care for babies. I have had 8 enquiries from people wanting to move their babies out of those particular nurseries.

There are also some very good small independently run nurseries with only 20-30 children, they are excellent, but I still maintain home is best for babies.

Gomez, a lot of our local schools won't allow the children into their afterschool clubs until year 2, as they feel they are too young to cope with the busy environment after school, when as you say, they should be chilling out and flopping on the sofa if they wish.

Some children thrive on it all and love it, it depends on your child.

I would imagine, Gomez, that most after school clubs are run so as to be appropriate for the age group they take in. Other words, if they take 4-5yo, they probably provide suitable activities or lack thereof. I will probably have 5yo DS in after school club, myself, as few CMs where we are moving to seem to do school pickups, and my other children will be in nursery.

Fair point on the pickups Zebra - I haven't got as far as researching it yet. Just trying to plan ahead as due #2 next year and want to have made the decision on afterschool care for #1 so I can (hopefully?!) tie the two together as much as possible. To be fair she won't start until August 2005 (yeah, I know 18 months away) so I might have won the lottery by then and not need to worry.

I agree with all the people that have said that it is a personal choice. Nursery provided everything that we wanted for our ds, who has been there since 7 months, so we did everything we could to be able to afford it, and are economising like crazy now cos once I manage to get pg we'll want to send both children there (and the next one from much much younger).

I also had horrible horrible experiences with childminders as a child , and my mum did too when my brother was a baby. In fact, my brother only really settled once he went to nurser. While we chose nursery for positive reasons, for me personally childminding was never an option.

So I hope that you listen to the advice, but then make the decision that suits you the best.

We have a fab childminder - found through word of mouth from a work colleague and from several parents of children who I have taught over the years. It has made my going to work easier knowing that she is professional but very caring at the same time.
They go to a local toddler group every morning and ds is always bringing arty stuff home that she has helped him to make.
For me, nursery would have streched our budget a little too far.
My advise if you are considering a childminder is to definitely go on personal recommendation

Hi. I think think if you find the right childminder it can be wonderful and really good in terms of providing care for siblings as well as continuing care when you children starts school.Like others have said, it is a personal choice. We sent ours to a nursery. Mainly I feel like a nursery offers something extra that I can't give my children. Interaction with a large group of different children and adults and stimulating activities. I like the fact that DS is with children of his own age so all activities are suited to his needs. To me, a childminder is more a replacement for me. I don't think they offer many extra benefits that I couldn't give myself if I stayed at home.
I feel that a nursery is also a safer enviroment. The staff knows how to deal with emergencies and they are used to dealing with sick children. What does a childminder do if a child becomes sick and have to be rushed off to hospital? Many childminders have more children than fits in their car (particularly if they do the school run...).
The ratio of adult-child is very good in my nursery. If a child becomes upset or sick, one person can look after the child. If the child is sick they will sit with the child until the parents come to pick up.
I also feel that I know for sure what is going on in a nursery. They are much more regulated than a childminder. I would be worried about personal clashes with a childminder if she did something I didn't like. With a nursery, you can ask beforehand how they deal with situations and the relationship is more professional so easier to discuss issues with them. With a childminder you never know for sure what actually goes on when you are not there.

Good Luck in finding your childminder/nursery!

Gomez, DD goes to before and after care during term-time (and she's not quite 3 yet!). At her school the kids have a variety of options, slump in front of beanbags and watch a video, playing organised games, doing prep or just running around or sitting and having a chat. It's all very relaxed and has the advantage that you only pay for the care you use.

Annalise, I work in a nursery, and DD goes to the same one. Prior to this, she went to another one. It is such a personal decision, especially when it is a small baby, rather than a toddler.
I can only tell you about our experience, which is a good one!! The children go outside every day, unless it is too wet, and if this is the case, we have a huge room with bikes and apparatus in. They have a variety of activities at all times and are never pressurised to do the same as every one else. Socially, I think it is excellent for them to attend nursery.
For babies, the ratio is one adult to two babies, and the staff are weel supported. Individual needs are generally met, and the babies are stimulated through a variety of toys and also through walks.
Siblings are catered for, often they are allowed some time for a cuddle etc, but not if it will upset one or the other.
I would recommend visiting a number of nurseries, not always announced, as this is when you will really see what goes on!!
HTH.XX

Fairymum, I have to reply to a few of your assumptions over childminders not knowing what to do in an emergency, or not being used to dealing with sick children. Childminders are required to undergo exactly the same first aid training as nursery staff which is specific to the special needs of babies and children. It is also an Ofsted laid down standard of their registration, as is the case with nurseries that they have detailed emergency/fire plans.
Many childminders are parents themselves (I have 4) and have a lot of compassionate and practical experience of dealing with children who are sick/injured.If a child needed to be 'rushed off to hospital' then an ambulance would be called in the same way as it would be if the child was at nursery. Followed by a phone call to the child's parents or other emergency contacts. An awful lot of childminders have 7-seater people carriers, and I always keep an emergency 20pound note in my first-aid kit for any emergency taxi I may need for not-so-serious accidents.
As a childminder I provide lots of opportunities for social interaction with other children and adults, and definately supply lots of stimulating activities. It is my job and my passion to do so.
Childminders are regulated to the same high standards as nurseries and by the same inspectors. Ofsted, as any school knows, do not take their role lightly.
Parents can never know exactly what goes on in any childcare environment, even in those that have web-cams. There are plenty of parents who have felt uneasy on gut instinct about what their child's day has been like - at both nurseries and at childminders. I provide a detailed home/childminder diary for each child's parents in which I write down the days activities, any news or stories, and a record of nappy changes and meals provided.
Childminding requires diplomacy and professionalism along with business skills and constant evaluation. It is misleading to suggest as a blanket statement that nurseries provide a safer environment or a more professional environment environment to that provided by many excellent childminders.

I definitely agree with those who point out that not all childminders are like Alibubbles... there's NO-ONE of her calibre near where I live, for example.
We went the nursery route for both children (dd, aged five months, is on her second day there as I type ) because we did have a mildly upsetting experience with our first childminder. She was registered in line with the regulations of four years ago but would never pass the new Ofsted inspection from the sound of things. I never doubted ds' safety but he was definitely not getting much one-to-one attention despite being the only child in her care. He started to cry terribly when we left him there - it was at this point we decided to make other arrangements - and adored nursery from day one.
Nurseries do vary enormously, Annalise, so as others have suggested, view several and turn up on spec. There is clearly a bit of a problem in Alibubbles' area, but where I live, it is the "chain" nursery that is consistently preferred by parents over two smaller independent concerns, even though it costs more. As Bozza remarked, the babies there set their own routine and I would definitely check this carefully with any nursery you are visiting.
Good luck with your return to work and welcome to Mumsnet!

Norma, you sound like a brilliant childminder. I am sure there are lots of fantastic childminders and I said so in my post. I am sure lots of childminders would be absolutely fine in an emergency too. I wasn't making a blanket statement (not meaning to anyway), but just expressing why I feel happier with a good nursery.
I do not feel certain that the majority of childminders are like you though. Maybe I am overly suspicious, but I would not trust a childminders looking after many children to be able to deal adequatly with an emergency. I am not necessarily talking ambulance-emergency. I don't tink you can compare a childminder and the training they have received (isn't it only 2 days and no exam?), to the professionally qualified staff in a nursery.
Both my children are sociable and active children who have thrived in nursery. I can see that for some children it would maybe be better to stay in a home with a childminder, so my opinions aren't all black and white. I am just very cautious about childminders. I have heard too many horror stories, but I am sure there are awful nurseries too.....

Thank you all so much for your advice.

Alibubbles, you sound absolutely wonderful, and if I knew of a Childminder like you, I would put my children with them in a flash and feel much happier about leaving them.

After reading everyone's advice, although I was initially leaning towards nurseries, I am more inclined towards a Childminder (if only I could find one like Ali!), but it depends on if I can find one I like that can take both boys.

I will still look at nurseries, as everyone has said, it's down to your gut instinct of what you feel happy with, so I will see how I go.

Thanks again

Annalise xxx

Alibubbles, I'm assuming, of course, that you are full at the moment, what area are you in?

I'm in the North-West...

I would not hesitate to use Alibubbles as a childminder - but she sounds like the creme de la creme.

I opted for Day Nursery because I didn't want to entrust my baby (was 6 months old when she started nursery, now 17 months)to a 'sole' worker. Yes childminders are strictly regulated, but the inspectors don't know what goes on behind closed doors. I too have seen the documentaries (including one where an experienced childminder shook a 5 month old baby to death, and in same BBC1 documentary one where a shaken baby was left with permanent brain damage - and this happened in the UK). I'm sorry if this sounds alarmist, and I sincerely don't want to insult childminders - I imagine by far the vast majority are highly conscientious and committed - but how do you know which is the rougue bad apple?

At least in Day Nursery, staff do not work alone and there is continuous peer supervision which provides a safeguard against potential wilful ill treatment.

Oh blimey - hope this hasn't pissed anyone off as I hate having disagreements with folk...but that genuinely is my primary reason for prefering Day Nursery. I think there are other more 'positive' advantages however such as early socialisation with other children...my 17 month old appears more 'confident' in new environments than many of her peers

Annalise - both my childminders have been wonderful, just wanted to stick up for them here. I know people who have taken their children out of childminders and nurseries, both can be bad/unsuitable. Both my childminders see it as a profession, are qualified, it's not a hobby or for pin money, they do it for the love of children. And they're in the North West.

Annalise, sorry, I am Hertfordshire. I also do in theory have vacancies because I don't work to full capacity. I have a baby under one in my care and that means I have lots of time for her and the toddler.

Handlemecarefully, I appreciate what you are saying, but I don't think that a childminder would have given a baby milk products when they have been told that they have an allergy as did the nursery in Milton Keynes recently.

I also looked after 2 children last year who were removed from another nursery of the smae chain as the parents were concerned that there was always unexplained bruises on their child and there was never enough staff in the baby room when she left her child. The staff were always 'on their way' she waited many a time with her baby for at least 30 minutes and eventually had to leave for work, unhappy at leaving her child. not adequately supervised.

I know there are good nurseries and I do reccommend them to people. There will always be good and bad, but hopefully less bad childminders with Ofsted being stricter.

Message withdrawn

I have worked in a nursery and been a childminder, I don't work now but if i had to pick childcare i would pick a nursery.

Of course a childminder could just as easily have made the same blunder as the nursery in Milton Keynes. And unexplained bruises? Kids get unexplained bruises all the time in nurseries. Obviously you don't get bruises from sitting in front of the telly 8 hours a day with your childminder...

The first-aid course is the same for childminders as it is for nursery staff, and for anyone else who works with children. Many childminders hold childcare qualifications over and above those of nursery workers and assistants, and many childminders are already vastly experienced foster carers. My son's childminder is a foster carer and also holds the NNEB and NVQ4. Another childminder I know gave up her job in a nursery to become a childminder after becoming disillusioned with the rigidity of the nursery environment and curriculum. She provides a fantastic, caring and stimulating home from home, where she is also a much happier and more fulfilled person. A lot of nursery nurses across the country are very unhappy with the low wages they are paid and are becoming demoralised to the point of contemplating striking.

Message withdrawn

Of the 12 people on my BA Hons in early Childhood stidies course, 10 were nursery nurses and those who were in day nurseries all said they'd would not use a nursery for their own children.

Sorry Fairydust, I don't think a childminder would feed a child something it was allergic too, as that is the one and only baby they would be caring for. I also don't have a televison downstairs, so my mindies don't get to see it very often!

Norma, I am sure you are right. I didn't find these childminders when I was looking though. What I found was women who had opted to be childminders largely because they wanted to stay home and look after their won children. Childminding gave them an extra income. Yes, they had been inspected and yes they had been on courses. I am sure many of them were wonderful childminders. I am also sure many of them didn't pay attention on the course they had been to or totally ignored advise they had been given and followed their own instincts when it came to things like discipline etc.
I have to agree with Handlemecarefully's post. I don't think all nursery staff are perfect, but I feel that there is safety in numbers. Both when it comes to emergencies and adhering to Offsted rules.

Twinkie, I've mailed you via the site about your childminder, she does sound really great...but I don't think she can have been on the list of people with vacancies that I was sent

Yes, but everyone's experiece and attitude to raising children differs. And everyone thinks they know best. You only have to go on MN to see that.....