Disiplinary hearing - help and advice - urgent please.

[worriedtohell]

Original thread here:

update

update - called for disiplinary - gross misconduct.

evidence: screen shot of penis

Secondary accusation of internet use in work time, evidenced by a 15 min time slot ( in the whole 2.8 years of being there) of internet use, prior to going home time. captured by screen shot.

FB has somehow been hacked also. While i was in the original investagatory meeting..... i went into work that day at 9am, the meeting was at 9.15 am. I had time to check the work emails, had a wee, spent some mins having a coughing fit in the loo ( was unwell) according to the handwritten note from my boss i had left FB logged in. I WOULD HAVE BEEN INSANE TO HAVE LOGGED ONTON THE INTERNET WHILE UNDER INVESTATION. not counting the fact that i was only at my desk for about 5 mins. My FB activity log has been printed off, and they have high lightted from my activity log any posts that may have happened in work time.
Of course these dont say if they are from the PC or phone. So, essentially count for nothing as mobile phone use is allowed.

An independed IT consultant has done a testomiomal, of which i have not as yet seen.

My boss who found the image has done a witness statement. The date she has put on the witness statement is two days later than the date form the orignal letter, and the date that i was told the image was found. ALSO, she says she found the image at 4pm. When, if you look at the signing in book, it shows that i was in the office till 4:20 pm that day.

And this is their only evidence for gross misconduct.

How is this even possible?

sorry - didnt attach. original here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/employment_issues/1536688-Please-can-i-have-some-help-just-been-suspended-from-work

Firstly you can take someone with you into the meeting (I believe) who can write notes but not contribute, it's a good idea to do so as you'll then have someone to collaborate what's said - it won't be a 'your word against theirs'

Also seek legal advice! Sounds like you're being stitched up, but they've yet to back up what's said with actual evidence.

Don't be shy about asking for this evidence either.

oh, the ' evidence' they have provided me with is the actual evidence.
that it is.

bar a ' testomonial' from an independent IT consulatant.#

thats it. how the hell can they gross misconduct for that?

The issue they have, is you use a shared id, and unless they can 'prove' you were the only person in the building AND 'prove' it happened at that time, then they really are chancing their arm.

I'd be talking to a legal professional and getting their advice and letting the company know what you are doing. The more you 'legally' know the better off you will be.

Have you been using the internet in work time? What do you mean byfb activity profile - have they accessed your fb account?

OK, try to be calm.

Have you received a letter to say you are facing a disciplinary? When is it? What exactly did the letter say?

What is the Internet usage policy at your work? Do they have one? You need a copy of it in writing, ASAP. Do other people access the internet whilst in work time? Can you prove this?

You also need a copy of their policy in relation to IT security. What does it say about sharing log-ons? Have the company breached their own IT policy by failing to provide everyone with their own log on, thereby making you vulnerable?

While you are at it, you might as well ask for a copy of the staff handbook, disciplinary policy and grievance policy.

What do they mean by a Facebook activity log? Have they hacked your account and printed it off? Have they looked at your account as a 'friend' would be able to do because of your privacy settings? What are your privacy settings? If they have managed to hack your account and look at information which isn't publicly available to everyone, that is a gross invasion of privacy (and a breach of the Telecommunications Act) which I would urge you to submit a grievance about, (and threaten legal action).

In terms of accessing Facebook on the day of your disciplinary investigation meeting - that is clearly bonkers - why would you do that? When I log on to Facebook, my account remains logged on until I actually log off. So even if it is a week later, if I type in Facebook into the address bar - it will automatically bring up my account. I think this is the most likely explanation here. Is there any way that you can show on your phone bills that you accessed FB via your phone, not your work PC?

I would be asking for a copy of the IT expert's report in advance of the hearing, in order to allow you to consider it. I would be sating that failure to do so is a clear breach of the rules of natural justice. I would also ask for your own IT expert to be allowed to examine the computer in advance of the hearing. Naturally you will expect your employer to be reimbursing you for the fee in the event that their findings corroborate your account. Do you have anyone who could do this? It may worth shelling out for someone to do it. In any event, I bet they will refuse, but you need to ask the question.

You need to get some legal advice, pronto. Your house insurance may cover it.

I would be putting the requests for written copies of the IT policy, internet policy, disciplinary policy, and grievance policy and request for your own examination of PC in writing to them, recorded delivery, ASAP.

When it comes to the hearing, make sure you bring a friend, ideally someone who has past experience of this type of thing. I would ask (at the time, not in advance) that you are allowed to record the proceedings. If they say no, I would be making sure that your friend's smartphone has accidentally knocked itself on to voice recorder mode.

Sorry to hear you are going through this.

Yes, that is all the advice that i have had.

With regards to FB, its from the day of the meeting, at a time when i was in the meeting.
From being logged in as me, viewing my activity log.

I can say, without doubt i was not logged into fb at work at that time. I did not leave a screen logged in either. I was only at my work desk for maybe 5 mins, of which i was checking the work emails and shitting myself about the investagatory meeting.

The meeting is friday, charged with gross misconduct.

everyone uses internet at work during work time. I have been advised that there is something called ' standard' procedure, so, if everyone else is doing it, then they cant sack you for it if they arent sacking anyone else. The lady comeing with me to the meeting, a work collegue told me that today she spent a fair bit of time playing bejwewled blitz! everyone checks their emails and things, not hours, just odd mins. I will be bringing this up.

As per my earlier posts, they don't need concrete proof to dismiss for gross misconduct, but they do need a reasonable amount of evidence.

What's puzzling me is that assuming you are otherwise a valued member of staff, this isn't the type of thing where its so serious/so beyond dispute that they have to sack you.

I mean, if someone otherwise valued does something outrageous like fraud, theft, violence etc, it can be that you have to dismiss because of the nature of the offence and the degree of proof you have.

But this is one of those where they could equally get away without dismissing you if they wanted to. So why do you think they are pursuing this line? If you had an idea as to their motives that might help.

because they have said on the invite letter that this may be gross misconduct and it would result in immediate termination of my employment.

i think essentially my face doesnt fit, or it doesnt with my line manager. To date i have had no warnings, no issues with anything, bar being pulled up a few times in supervision for leaving a water glass on my desk.

When is the disciplinary?

Friday

I think you need to speak to a solicitor urgently and preferably get the disciplinary delayed. Have you checked whether this would be covered on your house insurance?

It's a bit difficult to advise you, as you've not answered some questions people have asked you. Have you been provided with a copy of their disciplinary policy and IT policy (if they have one)?

Assuming you still haven't had the IT person's report, you need to now postpone the meeting as you won't have time to prepare your defence, which you are entitled to.

Write them an email saying you are entitled to be provided with evidence in sufficient time to enable you to prepare a defence, and as they have not yet provided you everything they are relying on, you are requesting a postponement.

Basically your defence will need to be that a) of course you didn't do it and b) that they do not have sufficient and clear enough evidence that you did to justify a dismissal.

Sorry, yes. I have the disiplinary policy. I dont have a copy of tge email/ internet policy. Nor any it policy. These have never been provided..

I still haveht had the it report, and, ive requested further documents which have not as Yet been provided..

I shall email requesting for it to be postponed.

and c) even if it were proven, it is not sufficiently serious to warrant dismissal.

I agree with Flowery - you need to request this material ASAP and ask for a postponement.

worriedtohell

Shockingly just had the it report.

I've postponed the meeting based on not recieving it in sufficient time.

The report states tge images on the pc were there. And that according to the properties, were downloaded in my working hours. It states that my boss identified some of the pictures as my family members. This is incorrect. I have a copy of the downloads They sent me!!!!! How dare she say that!!

It says the intetnet history was cleared abd my boss tells him this has only happened since ive been in, post investagatory meeting. He has said he can't confim this, but is behaviour of someone covering their tracks!!!! ( now, ive been doing this for the 2.8 years ive worked there, you might think if it was an issue, or pcs checked, it would have been noted sooner)

It then goes into say since the pc wasn't seized, and things have since been deleted, as witnessed by him, as the boss didn't want them on the pc, then he can't comment further.

But that the screen shots they have shown him don't appear to have been tempered with.

I'm no IT expert, but surely it should have commented on where they were downloaded from, I.e. from a phone or camera, a pop up on a site, or a deliberate download. Has the report commented on this at all?

What makes your boss qualified to say that history has only been cleared since the meeting?

Maybe post on geekie stuff, but it doesn't sound like a very probation report. What makes him qualified to say that clearing the history is the sign of someone covering their tracks? (although I only clear the history when I have been on MN, or DH does after he has been looking at porn ). But since you are Working on what is effectively a shared computer, you could argue that history is cleared because of Internet banking, personal e-mails etc.

Personal usage in our work is strictly prohibited (not that I would ever have time anyway), and I must say, after seeing this, and other threads, I am very glad.

Can you get someone to do a report rebutting the IT 'expert's' report? It may be something that can be done online?

Probative.

ust hada copy of the signing in sheets from that day. From that, i was not the only one in the office AT ALL!!

Yet, my boss, had told the people dong the investigation, AND its been minuted as such, that i was the only one in.

The time sheets, filled in show something different to what the staff have signed in and out of for that day.

None of it adds up.
Its all bollocks.

I don't think much of their IT expert. He has relied on the file's timestamp to figure out when it was created but it is easy to change the timestamp. On the information you have posted he does not seem to have made any real attempt to figure out where the file came from or when the internet history was cleared (which might give some clues as to who did it). He doesn't even seem to be aware that it is usually possible to recover deleted files.

Putting that to one side, if the signing in sheets show that you were not the only person in the office there is no case to answer as far as I can see. The computer concerned is available for anyone to use so there is no way to prove who was responsible for the presence of this image.

It seems your boss has:

• falsely claimed you were the only person in the office that day

• falsely claimed that some of the pictures on the PC showed members of your family

• given a false witness statement

One of these on its own might be a mistake but all three is starting to look like she is trying to manufacture a case against you.

Regarding Facebook, is it possible that you have used that computer to access Facebook previously and told it to remember your password? Alternatively has your boss only accessed information that can be seen publicly by any Facebook user? If she has hacked your Facebook account that is potentially an offence under the Computer Misuse Act.

Thanks.
So, I can log a greviance with those points, backed up by evidence. Yes???

And its worth doing this before the hearing, yes?

You don't need to raise a grievance. All these points will constitute your defence so you should put them forward in your hearing, including in writing to ensure you cover everything.

They should take into account your defence when deciding on whether to impose a disciplinary sanction and what level, and if you're not happy with the outcome you can appeal the decision.

Worried,

These are good things to use in your defence.

Now, sorry to sound like I am being bossy, but how are you getting on in finding an IT expert to comment on the report? You really need to get one.

When it does come to the hearing, try to remember that you want to disprove the allegations and clear your name, but also to remind your employers that you enjoy working there, give of your all, and are completely at a loss as to how these images got there. Once you are cleared of this, you are prepared and looking forward to drawing a line under this and coming back to work.

You don't want them to think you are guilty, but trying to get off on a technicality.

And given the conflicting information which is emerging, you really need to make sure you record the meeting, either overtly or covertly.

Honestly, if I conducted such a shoddy a misconduct investigation I would be sacked for incompetence!

I havent got one really.

The guy ive spoken to advised to leave the technical stuff out of it, as it should be thrown out on the basis of everything else. And to keep the technical analysis back for the appeal.

I'm not trying to get off on a technicality, but since this is all false, from my manager ( and the only manager there is) I caht see how I can actually work thre any more...

Who is the 'guy'? An employment law expert? Why would you hold part of your defence back for the appeal? Surely the idea is to defend yourself as strongly as possible so you don't need to have an appeal!