cannot be given part-time job because position was advertised as full-time?

[marlus]

Hi there, I applied for a job a while ago and was offered it on Sunday. It's a lecturer job, so I am really happy, but with a 1.5 year old, don't want to take it full-time. I met my would-be-head of department today and she said she would consider my preference to work 4 days, but she has now been told by the school administrator that she is not allowed to appoint me for less than full-time, because

"in the absence of an explicit provision for such an arrangement we
would have excluded, from the applicant pool, other applicants who might
have considered applying on a part-time / jobshare basis"

does anyone know if this is technically right? If so, I can forget about getting an academic job, because as far as I know they are always advertised as full-time...

Why did you apply for a full time position if you can't/won't do full time

Because in my experience it has never been a problem to negotiate hours down, and a friend of mine, who works for a union, said that they always encourage people who want to work part-time to do this. I have been allowed to do this by the same university for another job. So now I am just really confused about the rules...

have you spoken to hr? sounds wrong tbh, i always thought it was possible to negotiate down. if not ca you work compressed hours or from home?

Speak to HR, or browse through the recruitment pages of the university as there is usually a paragraph or two about flexible working. IME it is usual practice t negotiate down, as you say.

However, from personal experience of full/part time work I think full time is the most family friendly, ironically. I've worked all combos possible and the worst of all have been part time as I've ended up working nearly full time anyway due to the demands of the job. Find a flexible ish manager who cares less about the hours you work but more about your outcomes and full time work can be the most satisfying. I usually manage a few early finishes each week. I understand yours is 1.5(mine are a bit older) but they aren't pre schoolers for long so be careful about setting your flexible working hours around the demands of pre schoolers. That was the best advice I read on mumsnet.

Hi mercibucket. Yes, I would be allowed to work compressed hours and/or from home, but with the hours for the fulltime position averaging around 50, according to other staff, I just don't have the hours free from childcare to make that possible. I will check with HR tomorrow, but was wondering if anyone on here knew more...

Thanks Llareggubb. I know that working 'part-time' in this position is probably going to mean full time anyway, but I am hoping to at least avoid the 50 hours that my prospective colleagues apparently are doing.. It's a hard job to turn down, but I think I might have to :(

Yes I have heard this before also with a casual contract person being given a perm contract.

I don't know if there is any actually comeback for someone who didn't apply for a job and then finds out different terms have been agree tgat means they would have applied.

Hiw come salary can be altered?

If you wanted the role part-time you should have said so at the beginning of the application process.

Your employer is well within their rights here.

Your other choice is to work f/t for 26 weeks and then apply for part time hours - they must consider a flexible working request but don't have to grant it.

I think this is how it would work with my employers too - i.e. job advertised as full-time therefore most people wanting part-time wouldn't apply. If you get it part-time then some folk might argue that they weren't given the opportunity to apply.

Hi, I'm a part time lecturer which basically means I am full time but paid less. Honestly, I work the same hours as I ever had and am in the process of remedying it.

Most full time academics don't work 5 days in the office, so I would accept the full time job!!

I would ask the union (UCU?) as well as HR.

Why on earth didn't you ask either before applying, or at interview stage ? . At that point they could have made it clear if they would consider PT appointments.
Of course they want the appointed candidate to do the job they advertised - I'm surprised that would come as a surprise to anyone, tbh.

Accept it and renegotiate hours once you are established. I did this with a role I wanted (not academic) when I had DSs age 8 and 7 and DD age 12 months. The time I worked full time was tough going but it was only a few months before I requested part time hours which were then agreed. TBH as others have said the part time hours were not much easier and I went back to full time after a while anyway.

Go for it, try a work from home day or early finishes and see how it goes

Go for it, try a work from home day or early finishes and see how it goes

Sounds like bonkers public sector policy to me. So they've got a suitable candidate and you're negotiating working hours which they sound happy to accommodate, but let's waste time and money either potentially having you decline the role and they have to start again, or readvertise it as part time and see who else applies.

It is ridiculous however entirely plausible.

Hi everyone, thanks for all your input! The plot thickens, because it now appears that they discriminate against other potential applicants if they consider part time hours for me, but discriminate against me if they don't (see here: www.xperthr.co.uk/faqs/topics/2,8/attracting-suitable-candidates.aspx?articleid=61819&page=1&mode=close#61819). The legal advisor of a union that a friend of mine works for said the same. So now I am just waiting to see what they do. The part-time hours thing is more for my own piece of mind than anything else. I know I don't respond well to feeling that I am not doing as much as I am supposed to do, and I would struggle to make up the day with my son elsewhere (little time in the evenings and if I work on weekends a lot that would just defeat the purpose). I am actually really hoping for a jobshare, but that looks unlikely. Thanks again for your feedback, though, it helped me to get a few things clear in my head.

Familyguyfan, can I ask you how you are trying to remedy the fact that you are working full-time hours?

i think a few people are being unfair saying you shouldnt have applied if you had no intention of working full time. i also think it is not a good idea to discuss working hours at interview

i had this on the flip side, there was a promotion going at work, advertised as a full time post, as i only work 4 days (and want to reduce to 3 days) i reluctantly decided not to apply. so what did they do? give the position to two women working 3 days a week as an overlap job share

i emailed HR and said why didnt they advertise it as full or part time/job share? they said that they advertise everything as full time and only when you are offered the post will they then consider part time or job share. and this is a reputable organisation who have counsel's and QC's advise them on employment policies

so OP i sympathise, i wouldnt want to be working 5 days with a 1.5yr old, my DS is 3 and i want to reduce my hours. you are within your rights to make the request but am afraid they are also within their rights to refuse

They aren't discriminating against you - there is no right at all to work part time rather than full time. You've applied for a job on explicit terms which you have been offered. You can accept it or turn it down.

I am an academic. I wanted to go 4 days but couldn't have kept up with the hours. so I am ft but keep to a strict 40 hours in the office. I keep up with my colleagues by being very focused when at work. but I do email and thinking when at home (i am up now worrying thinking about a PhD student).

depends on the area but in mine I don't think pt academics are taken seriously. are you newly qualified or returning?

Thanks MarthasHarbour, it seems like different organisation have different ways of working it. The university is looking into it for me at the moment. MamaChocoholic, I haven't even finished my PhD yet, which is why it is such a great opportunity (although at the same time I worry about finishing and then publishing from my PhD when there are so many other demands on my time. Basically, others have told me I will be lucky just to get my PhD done in the first year.)

I think they are being more air than many employers, in that they are considering all staff who might be interested in a part-time role. (It's no different than advertising and selecting for role in city A, then changing it to city B: those in city B would rightly be aggrieved).

I think either you take the role full-time (for that is what you have been offered), or decline the role - asking them to re-advertise with the flexibility you want (bear in mind this costs them both money and time, so you will have to be very persuasive) and take your chances with the new field of candidates, or just decline the role.

I'm an academic and I'd have to say that I don't fancy your chances of being appointed to a 0.8 post. Part-time work is almost always casualised, precarious and low-status and there is no real sense that it might be appropriate or desirable for ambitious, 'tenure-track' academics. I don't think this is a good thing, but it's definitely the situation you're facing.

So if this is the right job for you, in the right institution, I'd advise you to accept it and try to negotiate down to 0.8 next time there is a staffing review (probably mid-way through the next academic year). Turning this job down in the hope that a 0.8 post will come along would be very unwise. OTOH I'd say that if you've got a job offer without having your PhD in hand, you're obviously very good, so you could wait and see if a better role for you comes along - but as you say, it is unlikely to be advertised as a part-time one.

When your potential colleagues say that full-time hours average around 50 per week, are they thinking year-round? I'd say that on average I work a 40 hour week - but there are some weeks (e.g. when there is marking pressure, or I'm writing to a research deadline) when I do more, others when I do less (e.g. in the vacations when I am mainly doing research/PG supervision and can set my own schedule). With a 1.5 yr old who will be in bed by, say, 7 pm, you should be able to get a fair amount done in the evenings without needing childcare. You'll be able to keep your head above water during term, and then you can use the vacation times when your child is in childcare to crack on with your PhD.

Good luck with your career - the flexibility IME does make it pretty family-friendly. Though of course it IS the case that some academics work 50+ hours year-round (b/c they're driven and ambitious, or just in love with their work, rather than b/c it's a requirement of their post, IME) and you need to keep your nerve in knowing that working less is what's right for you and your family.

I've never heard of anyone applying for a full time role then expecting to get the hours/days suited to change them. Very strange. Surely a role has a certain amount of work doing and the hours are advertised accordingly.