cannot be given part-time job because position was advertised as full-time?

[marlus]

Hi there, I applied for a job a while ago and was offered it on Sunday. It's a lecturer job, so I am really happy, but with a 1.5 year old, don't want to take it full-time. I met my would-be-head of department today and she said she would consider my preference to work 4 days, but she has now been told by the school administrator that she is not allowed to appoint me for less than full-time, because

"in the absence of an explicit provision for such an arrangement we
would have excluded, from the applicant pool, other applicants who might
have considered applying on a part-time / jobshare basis"

does anyone know if this is technically right? If so, I can forget about getting an academic job, because as far as I know they are always advertised as full-time...

This is the state sector for you. The sooner we cut it right back the better. It's like a parallel universe.

hammy02 you have now - read my post upthread ^

Are you on the wrong thread Xenia? the op is talking about a job in a university, universities are not part of the state sector. The workplace culture and the employment assumptions affecting academics are very very different from those in most parts of the public sector (I assume that's what you mean by 'state sector').

Thanks for your input campergirls. I am still waiting to hear, but was not expecting to be offered a post just yet, and think the timing of it will be much better in, say, 1.5 years, when my son will be in nursery more often and I will be able to work full-time. So maybe I will keep the research job I already have (very flexible and part-time and almost as well-paid per hour as the lectureship), contribute to teaching in that job (same department) and wait with the hectic lectureship until it suits me better (and I have more publications). I got lucky this time, there were very few applicants, but will just have to hope that happens again some time in the future...

Ah if you have a well-paid research post already, then I would say that there's a lot to be said for holding on to it. Esp if you haven't finished your PhD - starting a full-time lecturing post does mean your research takes a hit, and lost momentum can be hard to regain.

You may have been lucky to have had limited competition on this occasion. But I am on a lot of interview panels in my dept, and we would only appoint someone if we really thought they were up to the job, even if the field was small. If we couldn't get the right candidate, we'd rethink our strategy. Because there's so little mobility in academia, you really want to get the right person - or you could be stuck with the wrong person for a long time... I guess what I'm saying is: don't be self-deprecating - intellectual confidence is very important in our line of work.

Go back to your would be boss and talk to her. Be open and honest with yourself first and then with her. It is hard to look into the future but try to see where both paths could lead and consider the possible pitfalls

If appropriate to have the conversation after you have soul searched, and you need time to finish your PhD first, ask if this can be built into structuring the role in the first 18 months and ramping up other parts afterwards if that becomes appropriate.

Another academic here. Just wanted to agree with Campergirls (and others) - FT far better than PT as far as academic jobs are concerned. I have several PT colleagues, including one on 0.8, and they all state that they are working FT for PT pay.

The job can be flexible - you can work at home and in evenings, etc, as needed. PT will also mean that your research takes a hit so if you want to finish that PhD FT will definitely be necessary.

I spent ages arguing with a colleague not to go pt when she returned from maternity leave. She ignored me, went pt, and now complains that she has no time for research and is expected to teach as much as a ft lecturer.

DO NOT GO PART TIME! (I feel really strongly on this subject).

Psart tikme is always worse for women anyway as they end up doing more domestic stuff at home for hubands and earn less so it never help gender politics much either never mind that you become the domestic drudge of the family. There is no right to work part time as we all know, just a right to request it.

I said state sector because most universities are in the state sector. If they have all been privatised do let me know.

Every business and company have different ideas of what is full time. I saw a job advertised for part time for over 30 hours a week. To me thats what id call full time.
I would not apply for a full time position if i only wanted to work part time. As i dont think its fair on the company/organisation to have to employ two people when they advertised for one.

Universities haven't been privatised Xenia, they were established as private organisations. Govt grants have been an important funding stream for them since 1919 (when the University Grants Committee was established), and as a result they have been subject to influence by the policies of successive govts, but that doesn't make them state institutions. Most UK universities - particularly the research-led ones - now draw their income from a wide variety of sources. At the one where I work, our income currently comes roughly 50:50 from govt and other sources.

However, my original point was less about the legal standing of universities as public or private institutions, and more about custom and practice in the way academics operate as employees - which is a lot more comparable to the professions than to the public sector, IME.

wow xenia 'Psart tikme is always worse for women anyway as they end up doing more domestic stuff at home for hubands and earn less so it never help gender politics much either never mind that you become the domestic drudge of the family.'

in your world maybe; but i work PT (28 hrs). DH and I split the household chores 50/50. Maybe we are tres modern

Marlus, the union are attempting to sort it all out. Fingers crossed for both of us!

if you have a research post you like, with hours that suit, and want to finish your PhD I would advise against taking the post even pt. the first year or two of a lectureship are the toughest I think because you have to write all those lectures from scratch rather than edit and update last year's. I am only speaking from observation though, because I have stayed on the research track. financially more precarious, but I love research and don't enjoy teaching :)

I am a head of a department at a university and responsible for recruitment of staff. I agree with the others that say that FT is better than PT but also you have as an advantage an anualised hours type of contract for teaching. I am talking about workload model here.

You could ask for all your teaching and class contact to be timetabled in to 4 days and then the 5th day would essentially be free for preparation and working from home. As long as you are prepared for the next set of classes that you do then nobody really cares where and when you do it. I have staff who work like this for variuos child or family care responsibilities and also staff who are doing PhD's like to have a day or so free to work on them so it can be done. Its hard work but also gives advantages if you can work it correctly.

On the other hand I would also ask HR about going on to 0.8 contract as we do it at our university after the interview stage without any issues.

You can shift things round though as others have said, it's very flexible. I do 8-3.30 every day, pick DS up at 3.45 and then do another couple of hours every evening. If you're hugely focused at work, no coffee breaks and lunch at your desk it's entirely possible. There are little
Tricks like I bought (at quite high expense) the software I use at work so I can do it at home with no probs. I know people look askance when I leave but I've just had a very high impact paper so the people who count don't care

However, having just read your last post I think you should carry on as you are for a couple of years and pump out your papers :)

I have to say that slalomsuki's post very neatly illustrates the downsides of an 0.8 contract: you'll still (probably) be timetabled over 4 days and get one at home, you just won't get paid for the one at home! whereas if it was your official research/prep day it would. (If the dept where you've been offered the job doesn't allow a weekly research day, then you don't want to work there anyway).

A lot depends on the field you work in and the workload model in use; in my dept, it's usually possible to be timetabled for only 3 days a week, keeping one day clear for teaching prep and admin, and another clear for research.

One more thing: although I said earlier that you might be best off sticking with your current research position, I'm going to put another p.o.v. now and say that if the location of this job really works for you in terms of your life plans, then it would be worth considering taking it very seriously. Academia is a highly mobile profession, and the need to move to get a job can play havoc with family life and personal relationships. So if you and your family would like to stay where you are, maybe you should snap this one up after all.

Why don't you just try the ft role and see how you feel in 6 months time? You don't want to look back on it in 10 years time as a missed opportunity.

Camper Not strictly true at my university. A 0.8 contract would have to do 0.8 of the anualised hours and therefore have less class contact time overall compared to a full time member of staff. That could be timetabled over the 4 days or crammed in to 2 days and in my institution it would be just over 2.5 days per week class contact assuming morning and afternoon. I have one member of staff who does am, pm and evening but he is exceptional

I personally would not encourage someone to go PT at a university. I resisted when I went back from maternity leave but a colleague of mine did and found it terrible. At my institution they have a terrible record of dealing with part time staff and women in particular despite what is put on paper. I am the only current woman who has come back from maternity leave, works full time and has been promoted. Everybody else doesn't come back or treads water for a while.

Slalomsuki - it's not necessarily true, I agree, and it depends a lot on where you work, how the timetabling operates, and what range of responsibilities goes with your job etc. For me, condensing my commitments so that I have the biggest blocks of clear time I can manage is really important, and that can be hard for part-timers to control - so that taking into consideration office hours, meetings, PG supervision etc, someone who has an 0.8 contract might in fact find themselves with commitments spread over 4 days. Unusually, there are a number of PT colleagues in my dept (men as well as women), and although they all have clearly reduced teaching loads, they all find it tricky to manage the more fluid stuff listed above in a way that works for them. Practices around this kind of thing vary hugely between institutions, and I think it's helpful for the op to have a sense of the range of set-ups she might be letting herself in for.

Anyway, you and I clearly agree about the undesirability of PT work for academics!

yes i think their policy is right and it is all to do with putting part time applicants off.

however, you could take the post, try all the options suggested, eg work from home, earlier starts , later finishes etc. if in 4 months or 6 you cant manage it and you are the star employee they might alter it for you?

might be worth asking if the second candidate would be prepared to do a job share with you?