Suspension from work - part 2

[applecrumbleandcream]

Thanks everyone, just catching up. Not feeling too good today. A bit grim. Not feeling strong at all but emotional and very sad. Been to the doctors again and just broke down completely, he wants to sign me off but I told him that I just want to get all this over with. He has wrote me a statement whilst I was there blubbering for me to send to the Investigator to say that I am not currently well enough to complete this work. I even had the doctor crying and saying he despairs that employers are doing this. I told him I have got no confidence in the unison rep. I spoke to him this morning to ask his advice about filling in this statement when it doesn't list my computer and what should I do, he was very sharp said if I don't do as I am asked then it is going to go to a Hearing and then said he was in a meeting and just cut me off!!!

My dad has said he will get me the best lawyer there is and forget about Unison, just wondering what to do about this. Have to go back to doctors again next Thursday. He is compiling a proper medical statement for me.

I'm sorry if none of this makes sense, but I can't think straight at the moment.

appple, have you called ACAS? There are legal requirements about disciplinary procedures and I suspect the deadlines your employer is demanding of you are unreasonable. Please call ACAS and check. If they agree, you can respond saying 'ACAS have advised me.... further as you are aware I am signed off sick and

This is exactly what happened to me Apple (think I've mentioned it before) I got accused and suspended for one thing, sent evidence back proving my innocence then they came back with something completely different, they had definitely done their homework and like you had witness statements
I asked my boss over an over if I was being forced to quit as I'd rather do that than be sacked an he said its just procedure. I fought it and fought it and ended up being sacked for gross misconduct. I really struggled to get another job for a whole with that on my record and only a few years down the line and not disclosing it am I finally settled
If you can afford to fight it then go for it, my advice would be if they have taken it this far they are trying to get you out, I'd bow out with a reference and your was held high rather than being sacked !! (I know noone will agree I'm just speaking from personal experience)

Apple have you actually had any contact with your Unison rep since you got the letter? What is he saying?

I am appalled at the apparent lack of information and support coming from Unison. They get plenty of our money in membership fees.

Wow Apple my sympathies [sad} you must be feeling like you have been kicked by a mule.

To give you what amounts to 2 days by the time you take out the weekend & bank holiday to look through all that, talk to a union rep etc is unreasonable. What are they saying they are actually investigating you for? Or have they just said we are having a hearing and here is the backing paperwork?

What about the witness does she always start before you and leave after you? If not can you ask for copies of her times sheets so that you can cross check that she was there to witness you coming in late/leaving early and fraudulently recording it?

Are they saying that you were the person on the internet for all these reams of internet sites? What information does the data contain? Do it has a time/date, pc logged onto, your log in ID plus the full internet link?

If any of it is for the day of the week you don't work, how are they saying that was you accessing the internet?

If any of this is where they had you down as logged into 2 PCs at once, how can you have been browsing the internet on 2 PCs at the same time?

If you never went near PC 3 which they had you logged in on, how can you have been browsing on a PC you have never been on?

To be honest I don't really know how this work however if you look at someone on facebook doesn't it come up with a /some sort of profile ID on the end of the link. Can you have a look at these from your facebook and see who they relate to? Check out who they belong to, also if there are any updates in work time as you would not have been updating other people's profiles...

I think they are up shit creek with this 'evidence' as it soon falls apart with your working week and their logging authentication errors.

I do think that a trip to a lawyer would be useful now.

Stay strong and feel better soon.

No not had the chance to ring. Only got the letter on Friday and with having tonsillitis I was too ill to do anything. Still not well now. Will ring him tomorrow but not feeling well enough for all this atm if I'm honest.

Please contact a lawyer. He/she will be able to advise you properly and take some of the pressure off you.
You should be able to see someone on Wednesday at the very latest.

Thanks Xales, will look into all you have said. The problem is feel so ill, the most I can do is drag myself out of bed in the morning. Family been away so not seen them, dh been taking dd to gparents to help me get some rest. Hopefully tomorrow will feel bit better. I'm that sick of it all now it's taken over my life, the worry and pain it's causing.

Agree with the others, everything you have said points to the fact that you need proper legal advice. Please get a lawyer - for your own sake.

Hello - have been following this thread but I am really confused. What are they actually accusing you of doing? I cant seem to figure that out!

Poor poor you. I hope it gets resolved and you get better.

myBOYS, I think that's part of the issue! They seem to be throwing piles of papers and 'records' at the OP but not really stating clearly and simply what it is she's supposed to have done wrong.

Done some research for you. suggestions....(fire this to your Union Rep first as you will need to keep him onside - and help with point 2..tell him that you are serious and angry - he needs to be able to tell them that)

1.. Ask your organisation how the data was obtained, the forensic safeguards they used and the qualifications of the people involved. (probably they have done nothing in the way they should have nor will they have the right quals).

1. Write to them, tell them you are unwell currently, and that you cannot defend yourself adequately without expert advice. You need 'time to evaluate your options'. (which you do - they will probably bully eg 'we wil have the hearing without you' get your union guy to do the 'she is serious, you can't go ahead without her defence, we will view bullying over this very serious as a union etc etc) (in your back pocket BTW is the fact that if they have NOT done this stage in a forensically secure manner the fake 'criminal' accusation of fraud will have been completely undermined (and the CPS hate that!) ... I don't think for a minute they really think fraud has taken place - otherwise where are the police??! - they are saying it to frighten you. You should stright-faced suggest that you ARE being accused of criminal activity and that that is why you are taking it so seriously). I am certain UNISON wil be able to get you an 8 week delay, or longer easily.

3.. Sign-off with 'I have been accused of fraud, a dismissal for which would have extremely damaging consequences for my career and health. I understand dismissal has been indicated as the sanction that will be applied should the investigation conclude that fraud has taken place. I am also concerned that if I am not allowed to defend myself appropriately that this will expose the organisation to legal action. I suggest that we postpone the hearing, to allow for me to obtain expert advice and guidance'..

4.. Suggest (provisionally of course) a date circa end of July,to allow you to obtain the correct advice.

[If you call an expert IT company they will tell you that there must be a properly conducted forensic analysis of the computer(s) involved -(I am assuming your organisation is reasonably big/has enough to pay). This would cost about £2K (but don't tell them - or worry about the cost- you may not have to pay.. ) They will also tell you that once engaged, it will take around 6 weeks to do the full analysis once access to the computer(s) is granted and they have attended.]

If the long time scares you, believe me it will scare them more - its salary cost and they lose the element of surprise and fear a little. It will also shake out some of their strategy - if they are just blustering to weaken your case for promotion or to prompt a resignation, when they start to see dollars racking up just to get to disciplinary, they may call off the accusation - it does happen. If they do, then I would (but you may not) then say that you don't want it to be called off, its very serious and you want to know why serious mistakes were made and use this to negotiate.. ).

Anyway being serious will either get them to drop, or negotiate, or harden. If they do any of these you are winning.

Sorry this is so nasty, but you really have to be defensive as much as possible until you get CERTAIN (ie written) signals that they have stopped being aggressive... for real..

Am absolutely no expert in this area but have followed this awful situation you are going through Apple from the start.

IMO I think that it was a very deliberate intention to deliver this latest wad of papers on you at the start of a bank holiday weekend. They can say on paper we gave Apple X days to respond but in reality how many of those days are working days??

They are being total bastards. I think I would be looking at doing 2 things tomorrow.

1. establish your right to delay this further until you have had time to digest and investigate the wad of papers they have sent you (and you feel fit to do so). Thankfully you have been under the Dr already, so producing Drs not/other evidence if you choose to go down the sick route (as opposed to just give me a fair amount of time) wont be a problem.

2. Make contact with an employement lawyer and establush your rights and get some good advice on how to move forward/fight this.

I am fuming on your behalf - they sound total shits. I am confused as to what exactly they are accusing you of. They seem to have changed the original accusations - Can they do that?? Why did they not produce this evidence in the last meeting?? All seems vert underhand imo.

As for the 2 faced bitch who has got herself involved in all this - I hope for her sake she was not one of your colleagues who recently got intouch with best wishes etc. Arrrggghhh! I am so so angry for you.

Sending you some hugs and pma. Hope you feel better soon.

i just lost my post....it was long and it vanished when i hit a bloody key i shouldnt....

but in short i was saying that i think the best possible outcome for you now would be to get a shit hot employment lawyer and get the best financial settlement you can before telling them to shove their job up their arse....

their case is flawed but i think they have an agenda and have had from the off - they dont give a monkeys about the facts - they want you out.

i would now concentrate of ringing them dry financially. In reality, how could you see yourself going back to work there after this?

im so sorry and this sounds so undeserved. hang the fuckers out to dry. get angry. get to a lawyer. This long drawn out limbo is having an impact on your health - i think you should take some control back.

I've followed this off and on and I don't think I've posted before. I'm not sure what you're specifically accused of (are you?) or of the rights and wrongs of their/your case because I don't know you, your job or your organisation.

The procedure, as reported, however, seems dire. If my job was at threat (and would you really want to go back after all this performance?) I know I would get myself the best employment lawyer I could afford. if they haven't followed procedure then regardless of the merits of their case they are on very shaky ground. I wouldn't mess around with this union rep who seems to be a useless jelly. Get yourself a brief (as they say!).

Be cautious though about focusing solely on procedure - also focus on things like unfairness, premeditation, deliberate stigmatisation, find out about any restructure/cost-cutting/redundancy plans (another advantage of extending the timeline - I have been close to a case where at the time of redundancy 'nothing was happening' as regards restructure.. but a year later at ET the restructure had gone through and surprise .. all the people accused of gross misconduct were those in roles that had been made redundant!

I advise on HR policies, Employment issues, disciplinaries and grievances. I make money as a consultant advising on this stuff. I am not a lawyer but am pretty comfortable handling this area.

I CANNOT ADVISE YOU STRONGLY ENOUGH that you need a good lawyer at this point in time, for a number or reasons:-

1. You are not strong enough to handle it by yourself (not many people are, it's not a fault, its just the way it is)
2. At the very best, this is being handled badly, at the worst there is an agenda here. The company needs to be put on the defensive, and you alone cannot do that.
3. You need someone with a vested interest on your side. ACAS/union rep etc cannot provide this.
4. They would not have gone to the point of witness statements if they did not intend to pursue this to a conclusive outcome. Either they are sure of your guilt or determined to push this through for another reason.
5. Having a colleague make statements against you adds weight to their case and you need to counter this
6. We do not have enough detail here in your posts to support you and advise you appropriately.
7. If, as appears to be the case, there are serious flaws in their evidence, a lawyer will use that information to close the whole investigation down completely. Simply pointing out these flaws to them by yourself will allow them to remove the flaws and thereby potentially strengthen their case against you.
8. All time delays will count against you both in terms of the outcome here, and in terms of your health.

If you are near London then David Green at Charles Russell and Paul Daniels at Russell Jones & Walker are partners I have personally found to be very competent (though I didn't warm to either of them). Bindmans I have also found to be very good though I don't know the current partner in charge there. If you are outside of London then pls tell us where you are and we can make a recommendation. This needs a specialist Employment Lawyer with teeth, not a nice generalist lawyer. A 'big' name will also put the heebiejeebies up them. The fact they won't let a lawyer join the next meeting is neither here nor there - it is their advice that matters, and the letters they send.

If you want my friend to have a look for you and/or to tell you any legal advice he used, PM me.

by the way, if any other public sector employers/managers are reading this - this is NOT the way to save money or make changes, or even discipline people who HAVE done something.

1. It costs money. It does not save money.
2. It can put people on the dole - that costs the country money.
3. It makes people unproductive -that costs the country money
4. Badly managed dismissals/disciplinary/redundancy causes fear and discontent and erodes trust, confidence and productivity - that costs the country money.
5. Anything that costs the country money reduces your money, which reduces your out put which costs the country money.
6. Which means that by wasting money and effort on your crap political games, you are not doing what we need public sector staff to do.
7. If you behave like this, you are making legal action more likely - legal action, court time, legal aid administration and clerical fees.. cost the country money.
8. As does administration of the dole, housing benefit etc.. which you are reliying on to pick up the pieces.. and that costs the country money.
9. It also means that bad managers keep their jobs because they have gotten rid of the staff that may threaten them. Paying salaries to bad managers is a waste of public money and costs the country money.

10. In the end, we all pay the price of bad, unscrupulous and incompetent managers and workplace bullies in the public sector.

Well done OP for not letting this happen. We are with you.

WorriedBetty, I can assure you that everywhere I've worked it would be unheard of to use disciplinaries to replace redundancy. As many places still have a final appeal to Councillors, Id say its actually less likely than in the private sector. We're not all so dim that we need telling that bad management costs money.

Excellent post StillSquiffy

Apple - Hope you are feeling a bit better today. We are all still behind you. xx

I just want to occur re getting legal advice. I had an employment issue and eventually saw a lawyer. It was good because she wasn't personally involved so was more objective with her advice, dp and my family were indignant on my behalf. She helped me with letters (used legal language so my employer knew I was also getting legal advice etc). I did end up leaving but she helped me hold my nerve and negotiate a substantially improved financial package.

Good luck.

MainlyMaine - great! No worries then! Unfortunately I have a) seen this quite a lot, especially with redundancies in ones and twos b) read plenty of case law where this has happened (and lets not forget case law is the small tip of the iceberg as most sensible employers settle before a case is completed), and c) when I followed along with a friend to ET, the ENTIRE CLAIMANT'S WAITING ROOM was cases from the public sector. and d) the tribunal's clerks told me that there were massive judgement backlogs because of A BIG RUSH OF CASES FROM THE PUBLIC SECTOR.

PLease don't be naive about this - of course the overt message is different.

Sorry Apple - I was angry when I wrote that as have just heard of another case like this from another public sector employer :(

I'm not naive about it worried betty. I have been a senior manager in several local authorities. I have seen good and bad management. More bad than good tbh. Local authorities are different to the rest of the public sector, because they are so close to direct lines of 'democratic oversight'. One thing which is very common is using redundancy instead of disciplinary. One thing which is not common is using disciplinary instead of redundancy. I would be absolutely amazed if that was what was happening here and I don't think it's helpful to Apple to suggest it. This is probably a simple case of appalling management of a disciplinary, unfortunately. The vast majority of disciplinaries don't lead to dismissal.

Just wanted to add to the chorus of disbelief who are rooting for you apple. WorriedBetty thanks so much for your comments as a public sector worker I have concerns about the procedures followed by some and I'm glad but saddened ?! to know I'm not being paranoid