Suspension from work - part 2

[applecrumbleandcream]

Thanks everyone, just catching up. Not feeling too good today. A bit grim. Not feeling strong at all but emotional and very sad. Been to the doctors again and just broke down completely, he wants to sign me off but I told him that I just want to get all this over with. He has wrote me a statement whilst I was there blubbering for me to send to the Investigator to say that I am not currently well enough to complete this work. I even had the doctor crying and saying he despairs that employers are doing this. I told him I have got no confidence in the unison rep. I spoke to him this morning to ask his advice about filling in this statement when it doesn't list my computer and what should I do, he was very sharp said if I don't do as I am asked then it is going to go to a Hearing and then said he was in a meeting and just cut me off!!!

My dad has said he will get me the best lawyer there is and forget about Unison, just wondering what to do about this. Have to go back to doctors again next Thursday. He is compiling a proper medical statement for me.

I'm sorry if none of this makes sense, but I can't think straight at the moment.

No hardly ever use the internet, just occasionally. These internet usages have all different websites I never use or know existed. I would never use facebook either as I know it is frowned upon. Can only think it is the internet usage for all the staff in the building. What has it got to do with me?

Apple when you use tgese pcs do you have to sign in with your sign in details and password?

Excellent! They have nothing and are trying to get you to admit to something so that they can take action. Or for you the read in their list of bollocks something you did briefly and panic and resign. Screw them for behaving like this. They have royally screwed up.

You might be in for a long fight, but you are on to a winner.

A friend of mine has been through almost exactly this. I will ask him in detail and get insight or even if he would have a look at what you've got for you. He has said very clearly that he wants to use what he has learnt to protect people..

My advice here would be read the evidence and be clear on what it is, but go to the investigation and ask them what they think it all means, nod sagely and don't be drawn into speculation. Ask for an adjournment so you can consider their accusations and ask that the investigation meeting be continued after a few days. Make sure your request (and their refusal) is minuted.

But that's my first reaction.. will wait to hear more .. bastards

Oh how grim to receive all that. If there's someone lying about you it all gets so much worse.

Having helped a friend with similar, I have a few suggestions.

1. Get someone else to read through the documents. It's really, really hard reading lies about oneself, and difficult to forensically pick them apart because the outrage and nausea just take over. A friend/family member will have that little bit more distance and be able to see the holes more clearly.

2. Can you get CCTV of you entering and leaving the building? If you can find a couple of examples which contradict the times Ms Liar is claiming you arrived/left, that's helpful.

3. Get witness statements from multiple other members of staff to state that they too arrive at time X, do other work (egs), then log in. I know you were told not to contact them, but the investigation is now complete - and anyway what have you to lose? Get the friend to do the contacting if you prefer. My friend had accidental contact with colleagues who then proved key witnesses, and the employer couldn't raise a murmur - since obviously a competent investigation would have found those witnesses itself.

(I should add that my friend lost at the Disciplinary Hearing and then won at the Employment Tribunal, which was scathing of the employer. Friend took pay-off instead of reinstatement.)

Hope tonsillitis is soon better - all the more reason to get someone else onto the paperwork and running around collecting evidence if you can.

So sorry you're going through this.

Sounds terrible. Unison should be able to offer legal advice too. Isn't that what you pay for too? Big hug anyhow.

Some more thoughts:

1. Two weeks is not enough for you to understand an interpret highly technical evidence
2. Where is their 'person who can explain in a human readable form' the technical evidence?
3. it is not encumbent on you to prove you didn't use, it is on them to show that you have.
4. Ask for time to appoint an expert to interpret their 'extensive data' Two weeks is NOT ENOUGH (this will increase their salary bill - tough)
5. Witness statements - who are these from, what are they saying? Are they all bollocks?
6. Facebook - is it your page? Were you signed in or someone else? How do they know?
7. Hopefully they will 'change' the accusation from 'fraud' to 'internet use' and back again - indicating a will to move goalposts.
8. Just shows... looks like they are trying 'internet misuse' which they called fraud to increase the stress and push for resignation
9. Similarly 'fraud' is what would be a 'dismissal with severe consequences' By doing this (the stupid feckers) they have increased their duty to make sure their investigation is more thorough and with a higher burden of proof... OOOPs :)

10. Let me know if you want to find someone legal who has defended in a similar-ish case. I can ask my friend who he used.

btw their investigation took, what 8 weeks but you have two weeks to respond? not acceptable.

This is just disgraceful

It does make me wonder if someone else is up to something and trying to pin it on you!

Hope you recover from tonsilitis quickly and yes fight them as there are clearly massive holes in their allegations and you deserve the pay off.

I have to log on with my username and password. I have never given these details to anyone.

Thanks everyone. Sorry feeling pretty grim at the moment. Started as a cold now tonsillitis, funny what stress does toPp you. Not eaten since Thursday, can't taste food or fancy anything.

Thanks worried, that would be helpful info if your friend has been through similar.

Serial kipper we don't have cctv to the building. I do have a sister who is very good and will go through all the docs with me. I am just worried about the short timescale. They need any paperwork etc by 10th and it is bank holiday on monday.

I am sure my other colleague would act as a witness that I come in at the times stated and that we work in an air with a bullying undertone, don't know how to word that.

People in your ITU support would be able to gain your login and password...

Don't say upfront that you have never given your login and password to anyone - it might feel like a good tactic but they may well use that to pin everything on you. I would say that you have been very careful, but you know IT and managers know usernames and the computers are open and shared so another employee could easily have seen what you typed or quickly used computer when you were logged in whilst your back was turned etc etc.

They are deparate for you to say 'everything under my login was me' so they can then say 'this evidence was under your login, so it was you'. Its more complex than that, and also depends on how your computers are set up, whether the computers are dumb terminals or stand-alone PCs etc etc

Each machine will have a user log, for example, each change on the PC is logged, cache files and automatic activity (tracked adverts, cookies etc) may transfer between users if temp files are used in a particular way etc etc etc...

Also at work we have remote access so someone else (they have to ask your permission - but could do it without) can look at your machine and uses it with your login, usually they are installing stuff and sorting problems but they could easily use the internet on your machine whilst you were aware from the desk and be non the wiser!

Been lurking for ages, unwilling to add my two-penorth as there's so much going on on this thread, but I wanted to add my support and finally say something. I agree with WorriedBetty that your way forward is to familiarise yourself with all the stuff they've sent you, but go into the hearing with the attitude that they must do all the talking and interpreting of the material. Don't 'give' them anything but just ask what they believe these reams of paper to prove. Note down what they say/accuse you of and request a reasonable amount of time to respond to it all.

I think that even before all this, though, you ought to write to them pointing out the discrepancy in the time they took to investigate and the time they're giving you to do your bit. Try to get longer out of them.

And if you're not completely sick of unions, get yourself a new rep. Don't be shy about telling them exactly how and why the last one was unsatisfactory. You pay your dues; surely the least they could do is to come up with someone half-decent.

Good luck and stay strong! You have been so dignified and professional throughout this thread. I think you're handling it all exceptionally well.

Hey apple, as usual, I have no useful or practical advice, just sending all my good thoughts your way, and take the excellent advice on here. Clear your name and clear out. Can they transfer you to a different dept after your name is cleared?

Hope the throat feels better soon too.

Do you log out every time you step away from the computer? There is no reason for them to send you internet usage for the whole building, so I would guess that someone has been using the internet under your log-in. If there's stuff like Facebook on it, that might make it possible to prove it was someone else.

When you say you use it occasionally, how often and is it only when you're logged out? I would ask whether your internet is higher than average. Virtually everyone will be using it occasionally for personal stuff and I have known someone successfully use this as an argument in a disciplinary.

Apple, I strongly advise you to take your dad's money and go see a reccomended employment solicitor. The phrase another poster used above was 'cut through the bull' and she's so right.

If they are as incompetent as they seem, your dad may get his money back.

It's time for this to fucking END. It's affecting your health my love. No job is worth this. No job is worth this.

Apple, I am computer useless so cannot advise but just wanted to say you are in my thoughts.

Apple, this is unbelievable. Don't know what to say - hopefully you will get good legal advice from others and either a better union rep or a lawyer.

I hope you get over your tonsellitis too - you're under so much stress. Look after yourself.

I think you should get a lawyer too. It might seem a lot of money but it is an investment in you and your future. You are worth it. Don't look back and wonder if you could have done things differently.

It may also be worth asking to see all the records they have with your name on them via the personal data/information act. I can't remember the details but you can request this information which I think would include any emails about you from your manager and might throw up something you could use against them.

Morning Apple . I have been following this thread since the start but haven't posted.

I was hoping that matters would resolve themselves but I now feel that you ought to get specialist legal advice from someone in the field of employment law.

I say this because

Your health is suffering

There seems to be a lot of information / evidence/ allegations for you to process and act upon and I don't think you can manage this alone

Your union advice does not seem to have helped

Your dad has offered to pay

I have personal experience of getting specialist advice when I was in dispute with a large local authority employer. It made all the difference to the outcome for me but more importantly it gave me reassurance and support thoughout the lengthy process. It was expensive but well worth it.

If you want to PM me I can tell you more.

The very best of luck.

Me again-meant to say my lawyer advised me to do a Freedom of Information Request to access emails/correspondence and minutes of meetings about my case.

Not sure whether this would apply in your situation but you could ask.

No advice but moral support. Come on Apple. Let's beat the bastards.

Hi thanks everybody. I agree about the employment lawyer, however, the letter for me to attend the hearing says I am not entitled to legal representation and only either a union rep or colleague can attend. If I have any papers to present in the meeting, they need copies by this Thursday!!!

This doesn't give me much time to get in contact with union tomorrow, prepare something and post to them. It's all so unfair..

Me again

I am not suggesting lawyer accompanies you to meeting but advises you prior to the meeting.

That is what happened in my case. I met the lawyer three times in total and he advised me what to say and what to do.

He wrote one letter on my behalf and then advised me on a financial settlement.

Again, I'd say write to them pointing out how long they've had as opposed to how long they're giving you. Tell them that you need to talk to your union etc. The timeframe is completely unrealistic.