New manager says she will not approve any training until I have a degree. I am really stuck.

[AKMD]

Brief background: I work in the medical technology industry in a very specialised role, where everyone is presumed to be a graduate. By some miracle I was employed without a degree and now have over three years of experience in the same company and a promotion under my belt. In those three years I have had seven line managers, only three of whom had done my role before.

My current manager previously did a very similar role to mine in another company. She started last autumn. Before Christmas she asked each member of our team to put together a training proposal for 2012. I put mine together based on the training I had found useful in the past for keeping up-to-date and on a skills/knowledge gap analysis. I presented each element with the gap analysis and the reasons why it would be useful to the company. In our 1-to-1 to discuss my proposal, my manager said that she would not approve training for me until I had done a degree. I was a bit stunned, even more so when she told me that if I was applying for my role now, she would not consider me. I tried to discuss it with her but she got so angry that she was physically shaking so I didn't get very far.

I am a bit stuck. I am good at my job and even though it isn't my dream career, I do want to progress within my field. This isn't a role that you can get an undergraduate degree in but the job specifications I've looked at all ask for a degree in the life sciences. I'm good at science subjects but I don't particularly enjoy them and I can't see myself wanting this job so much that I would have the motivation to spend 5-6 years doing a degree I hated just to keep it.

I can see her point: I work 25 hours a week and would be hard pressed to find a similar part-time job at another company, even with a degree. Without it, I'm not sure I stand a chance. I'm a bit puzzled though as to why she thinks I would want to spend 5-6 years in my current role without any progression and why she thinks so little of practical experience in a field that you can't get a degree in.

This is getting a bit long, sorry. There is a more to it but I am dreading going back to work and feeling patronised and sidelined. I am not stupid and I resent being made to feel that I am. As far as I can see it, my options are:

1. Stick it out and try to reason with her.
2. Stay where I am and do a p/t degree in the life sciences.
3. Stay where I am and do a p/t degree in a subject I'm actually interested in.
4. Look for another job.
5. Do a f/t degree and start a new career.

I'm leaning towards 3 or 5, although 5 would mean a sharp drop in our joint income and DS is only 1, so we would need a full-time nursery place.

Any advice? Thanks for reading.

Why on Earth do a degree for someone else's benefit?

This is an interesting one, because it is discrimination based on educational attainment. Which isn't specifically covered by legislation, as there is nothing directly illegal about this. BUT it seems particularly ridiculous that you are being discriminated against for not having a qualification which is not a specific requirement for your role (the fact that 90% of people may have a degree is not IMO particularly relevant)

Much of the recent legislation has moved to support capability in the job role as opposed to other criteria such as age, and you could sort of swing that round to your situation.

if I were you I would stand my ground very firmly and tell her that if she is denying you opportunities that are being provided to your colleagues, regardless of your capability in your role, then she is directly discriminating against you, and that you will not accept such a situation. I would further tell her that given a degree is not a professional requirement, then she has no grounds for such treatment, given that legally she has a duty to promote progression on the grounds of capability and that unless she has concerns on the capability front then she needs to treat you no less favourably than colleagues with degrees.

You are possibly on slippery grounds, given the lack of legal oomph on educational discrimination grounds, but TBH if you start talking discrimination she will probably be sensible enough to then ask HR or a solicitor if she is being discriminatory, and they will come back and then say that legally she is probably OK-ish, but they will also ask her why they F is she doing it anyway (especially if you are the only part time person), given that capability is the be-all and end-all these days.

A final qn - are you the only PT person?

That's interesting. I get the sinking feeling that she just doesn't like me and wants me out, which is a real shame because I was so relieved to finally get a manager who knew what they were talking about.

I am the only PT person. I am also the youngest and the only other woman. The other people in our team are 30 years older than me and male. She is only 5 years older than me and has one more year of experience so I have to wonder if she's feeling a bit insecure.

why was she so angry about it? That sounds really strange

I don't know really. I wasn't being rude, I was just trying to point out that a p/t degree would be a long-term goal and that I still needed to keep my knowledge and skills up-to-date in the medium-term to be able to do my job properly. I saw she was shaking and backed right off but it leaves me wondering where to go from here.

On a personal level I would say she feels very insecure - what if you want to come back to work ft? You would a be a shooin for her job surely! I have no practical advice for you except that surely hr would look very sourly on what she is doing?

wow - that's a really extreme reaction.

I would speak to HR - this does sound very strange! It is in their interests for you to be current in your field.

I have a smilar(ish) problem whereby in Belgium I got a job with a company whose working language was English. They were then absorbed back into the parent company whose working language is French/Dutch. I don't speak Dutch. I will not be promoted because of this - yet I have been there 5 years and never had a problem. It's not MY fault the rules changed, by I am being discrimated against (imho) as it was never a requirement of my employment....and I am trying to learn....

It sounds like she is trying to assert her authority. Is she feeling threatened by your experience perhaps?

This seems to be an odd situation. I'm wondering why you have had so many managers in three years. Is there a chance she will be moved on quickly?

Work has been so appallingly bad with so many changes in the last two years that this might just be the tipping point for me to jack it in and finish off the degree I started before the credit cut-off date. It's a bit of a scary choice to make though and I am royally hacked off with being sidelined like this (as I said, there's more to it but it's boring and petty).

HR probably wouldn't like it but based on past experience they are a bit useless and it would cause more unpleasantness. I could talk to her directly about it but I think I made a very reasoned argument in my first proposal and it has been rejected out of hand. The training was all things that either I had done before and have gone on every year to keep up to date or, as I found out, are courses that her last company sent her on. Talking to her, she just doesn't think that I know enough or have had enough experience to benefit from them, which makes absolutely no sense. My conclusion is that either thinks I am stupid (not so, I got into Oxford) or that she doesn't want me to have the same training as her for her own reasons.

Can you ask for a different line manager?

thelittlestkiwi I've had so many managers because our company was bought out in a merger and trying to get the two merged companies to work together has been an absolute nightmare. One manager left, two were caretakers while they tried to recruit a replacement, one was transferred to a related function, one was messed around on his contract and so is now the same level as me, one was the director who is located in a different country and is never available to contact and now this one. Everyone before now has more or less assumed that I know what I'm doing and left me to get on with it so I ended up with a lot more responsibility than my pay grade should have, but now I'm having to prove myself again and am more or less being used as a glorified admin, which is so frustrating. I was wondering whether I was resentful of having someone actually managing me and I was being unfair because I wasn't used to it, but I don't think I am. I was genuinely thrilled when I first met the new manager because she knew exactly where I was coming from.

there must be a training policy or some such - we nurture our employees type of thing this could very much be seen as constructive dismissal

ive had my fair share of staff worried and troubles and confrontations - so i absolutley know wehre you are coming from - but i can tell you as the person sitting in the managers seat - if hr comes to you and tells you that there could be a case for say..;constructive dismissal as you 'mentioned the training thing' you revise your position for the health of the company - becuase at the end of the day....if there is a tribunal or a dismissal you look bad as a manager.

if she is shaking she is clearly a shit manager, not being professional and she herself needs training - although this isn't for you to point out - it is for you to keep a diary of. becuase if this woman does want you out, you need to keep a diary of all the incidents.

you really need to go to HR

you yourself said that getting this type of role anywhere else would be difficult - an in this climate jobs are valuable.

so fight for it.

the way i see it shes agling to get rid of you - so what have you got to lose?

cornsilxskiy that's not an option unfortunately. We're a centralised department providing services to the whole group and the next report above my manager is the vice president. My role is very specialised so I just wouldn't have the skills to do a lateral transfer into our sister department.

Custy that's a good point. I will start keeping a diary because there are all sorts of incidents which look petty on their own.

Just to clarify, I know you said that "by some miracle I was employed without a degree". By that, do you mean every other member of the team has one?

It does sound strange, especially her reaction. Not professional by any standards (unless there is something else going on in her life etc).

I'd go straight to hr or a more senior manager if you dont have an hr dept and talk to them, both about her dismissal of any training for you (do you know if there is anyone else who doesn't have a degree and have they been told the same thing?) and about the way she dealt with your questions.

I assume you have been doing your job perfectly well until now and they have been happy for you to do the same sort of training previously that you have requested and that you were not asking for anything out of the ordinary...

Which just goes to show their recruitment policy now is missing out on good recruits by requiring a degree if you arable to do it well.

And although she didn't hire you, you were hired and you have been doing it well so you have the experience in lieu of a degree.

As an aside there's lots of academic stuff available online especially from places like the OU. Could you look at a final year course materials related to what you are doing, and see that you understand it then show that you have the relevant degree knowledge...

Good luck - sounds a horrible place to find yourself when previously everything was ticking along fine!

Just to add, you also have the option of "agreeing" to not have any further training. If this hinders you in future performance/appraisals then you have the argument that training was refused etc, catch 22.

That's shit AKMD (I like option 3 - what is your part-way degree in? Something you enjoy? I'd finish that off while continuing to work p-t where you are with the knowledge you are doing something to move on to)

I think I would play it cool for now - but send her your training proposal and just say something like further to our meeting here's a hardcopy for you. Please can you let me know in writing which training you will be able to support me with for 2012?

Get her response in writing. Make a note now in a diary (with nowt personal in ) or even better send yourself an email to your personal email address setting out as much detail about the meeting as possible (including her very strange reaction). Email will be timestamped so show how contemporary it is to the event (and do this for every encounter/act of strangeness from her in future). I suspect this is about you being p-t and her insecurity - a combination of reasons - but none of which you should be having to pay for. I wouldn't go to HR just yet. I think there's going to be more to come from this woman (unfortunately for you) but you've been forewarned now and you can (a) make your own plans for your future career; and (b) you'll be watching and noting everything down from now on so if and when you do need to go to HR you will already have your case in the form of emails to yourself.

WOuld agree with poster above who said training policies/personal development policies/balanced scorecard/annual performance reviews etc should all be looked at with a view to picking out what the company says about training to keep current. Don't send any internal co. docs to yourself at home email address (could be disciplinary matter/breach of security policy) but do print off and keep a copy at home for later reference if you need them.

Good luck and sorry you're dreading tomorrow - hopefully she's had a good christmas and calmed down a bit but for the life of me cannot see why someone would be shaking with rage when discussing or even disagreeing about training.

AKMD firstly don't quit. There is no need to respond rashly to this

Secondly keep a log. Please write down all of the stuff that has happened, what was said and by whom.

I would also confirm it in an email to her, checking the facts and facts alone. She would have to respond. Could the company pay for your degree? Would you want to do one?

There are others on here who know far more about HR than I do.

VERY weird.

I must say i personally consider the requirement to have a degree for a job to be age discrimination, given the difference in the likelihood of having a degree depending on how old you are, but I don't think there is any case law about this (not that i would know, I'm not a lawyer and haven't recruited for a few years now).

i would join a union and perhaps go to HR to get some initial advice (though I might be a little bit circumspect initially, unless HR are super-trustworthy in your organisation). I think the fact that you could be left without the training you need to stay current in your role is a major issue.

In order to show willing, is there any training you can do that is relevant but that would fit into a degree - possibly a Foundation Degree - at some point? A union learning rep might have some ideas?

I am the only member of the department without a degree. I don't want to sound reverse-snobbish but I don't see how having a degree would help much in this field. On-the-job training is so important because the goalposts shift continuously and any written textbooks would be out of date before they were even published. In-house training keeps me up to speed with the relevant clinical knowledge but that was part of my rejected training proposal. The other things I proposed were things like a project management course specially tailored to this field, which would be fantastic because I manage(d) a lot of projects and although they have all gone well I would like new ones to be more efficient, the professional certification offered by the society we are all a part of and is especially for people who have been working in the field for 3-5 years and a yearly conference that I have always been to to discuss the latest updates with government representatives and industry experts.

look, various people have said it but you need to speak to HR. Please tell us you will.

i presume it was not a requirement of the post, it isn't in your JD therefore training cannot be witheld.

it was not a requirement

not a requirement

i would join a union sharpish, as unions do not take on existing disputes - and this could turn into one.

please do phone ACAS though and get some proper advice.

i would be straight to hr saying"i have been refused training becuase i haven't got a degree, but it was not a requirement of the post. i feel this is is one of many incidents that could constitute BULLYING and certainly leading to constructive dismissal"

you need to get hold of the company's grievance policy and give it a read through.

it will direct you to speak to HR and your manager and if not appropriate to speak with your manager then your managers manager

follow policy - this is very important. anything else is just 'whinging off the books' type of thing

Took a long time to do my post thanks to ds2 not going to sleep (he has been in every 5 mins asking if Santa is coming tonight or to say he can hear the reindeer on the roof [argggg]) so have xposted with lots of other posts.

But having read them, still think it is worth going to hr and/or the next person up, even if they are lots more senior. And keep a diary of everything. Definitely seems like your boss is not up to coping with some aspects of her managerial role. How do the rest of her colleagues find her - and are they getting their training with new questions? Because if they did their degrees a long time ago and your stuff is very specialised then how much of their degree is relevant to what they do now? If the regular course are enough to keep them up to date on your stuff then why does the same not apply to you?

I would love to finish my degree and it has always been a goal but it has faltered a bit firstly because I got married and we couldn't afford it and then because I was very ill during and after pregnancy and I physically wasn't up to working/looking after DS and studying. I've hopefully now put the health scares behind me (confirmation due on Thursday!) and DH's job has steadied so it might be a good time to start making plans again. My degree started off as PPE but I'd look at steering it towards global development/international studies if I went the OU route, with a view to coming out of industry and into global medical strategy. Working p/t and studying p/t would be perfect for that career route and you are all right, throwing in the towel over one person would be silly.

I will keep a diary and get copies of the relevant policies from HR. For now I'll keep it to that but if things don't get better or she insists on continuing with this stance then I will raise the issue with HR or the VP.