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Boss wants to just pay me in lieu of annual leave while on ML. I want the extra time off.

80 replies

MrsHuxtable · 14/09/2011 15:50

Ahhhh,
my boss is being complicated again. I spoke to him earlier on the phone about how he wanted to handle my annual leave next year when I'm on ML. I asked him whether he wanted to add it at the start or end of my ML and he said that he wasn't going to do that but instead pay me 1 weeks worth of holiday pay every three months that I'm off.
Now I don't want that and have in the meanwhile found information that suggests he can't do that.

How did everyone else's employers handle annual leave and ML?
We have no written maternity policy handbook or HR department.

OP posts:
hairylights · 15/09/2011 17:01

Good luck - and please take it easy and rest!

MrsHuxtable · 15/09/2011 17:41

I spoke to a couple of well-respected solicitors (employment law) today. The first, a woman, didn't exactly get my problem. She kept insisting I shouldn't worry and that I would be allowed to stick my AL at the end of my ML, even if that meant carrying it over into the next year. She said that she had never heard of a case where a woman hadn't been allowed to take her annual leave. It seemed, however, that she was a little lost as to why I would not just accept money instead of time off. Maybe that is why I liked her less.

The second solicitor, a more senior man, was very helpful. He said that the law is absolutely on my side even though it's a bit of a grey area and that I'm not asking anything unreasonable of my employer. He said I could not be forced to accept money instead of actual time off and while I might not be able to take all my AL up front, a compromise would be that half would be before ML and the rest after, even if that meant carrying it over to the next year (in case I'm not allowed to take it up front).
He said to write a formal and firm yet polite letter to my boss, outlining what I would like to do and offering different scenarios of how my leave could be taken. If my letter is ignored, he said, I should take it to the Employment Tribunal which I would most likely win. He key for the tribunal, he said, was to be reasonable and that my boss can not reasonable show how me getting my holidays would affect his business in anyway.

The problem, however, is that I work for a very small company which would mean that my boss will make my life hell after a tribunal and find an excuse to fire me. Big companies can't get away with this but apparently a small business can. It wouldn't be legal but we don't live in an ideal world. So the solicitor says, while I will win my case, I have to be prepared to leave my job after.

I have thought about it for a while but to be honest, the relationship between my boss and me has probably broken down so much already that I will be looking for another job anyway after my ML; I need to for my own sanity. I'm not talking about a career I have, just a bog-standard part-time job.
So I will write my letter and hope that this can be resolved peacefully but will I take it further if I have to. Just out of principle. Because this man has to know that he can't treat his staff the way he is. He is also doing other illegal stuff, which is not the point of this post but I feel that something has to be done.

The latest thing is, that he seems to have decided that I'm not entitled to my holidays of this year anymore because I have been off sick for pregnancy complications...

OP posts:
MrsHuxtable · 15/09/2011 17:42

Oh, and the pain apparently comes from a UTI/kidney infection and I'm now being treated with antibiotics. I really hope that this is what it is as they never actually checked my baby..

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hairylights · 15/09/2011 17:54

Your boss is wrong about sickness meaning you aren't entitled to this years holidays.

MrsHuxtable · 15/09/2011 18:00

hairy, I know that, you know that, the solicitor knows it but my boss thinks he can make his own rules. It's just one of many many things he thinks he can do.

OP posts:
scarlettsmummy2 · 15/09/2011 18:10

I am sure this won't be popular, however, you have said you work for a small company. Perhaps your boss is having financial difficulties, and perhaps he is unable to afford to pay to have someone in to cover for you.

MrsHuxtable · 15/09/2011 18:18

scarlettsmummy,
he doesn't pay any more for my ML than he would pay in wages as I will not be getting SMP but Maternity Allowance. None of the money comes out of his pocket. If my Mat Leave was in any way to his disadvantage, I'd even get his point but it's not, it's just another face working my shift.

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BerylStreep · 15/09/2011 20:11

OP, there was a recent case which states that employers cannot restrict carry over of annual leave after a period of sickness or maternity leave. I have quoted the link before - will go off and find it again.

He can't pay you in lieu of your leave - you are correct in saying the only time an employer can pay in lieu of leave is when you leave the employer. His suggestion is in breach of the Working Time Directive.

BerylStreep · 15/09/2011 20:37

Hairylights - sorry to contradict you, but the no carry-over rule cannot apply to those on maternity leave or sick leave.

There is a new European ruling on this, that has determined that annual leave cannot be availed of during sickness absence or maternity leave. You are therefore entitled to the whole period of leave for any period off sick or on maternity leave. The ruling also stated it is unlawful to restrict carry over in these circumstances. here

OP - Your boss's claim that pregnancy related sickness means you are not entitled to leave is laughable (sorry, bet you aren't laughing), and totally illegal.

I'm really sorry to hear that you're not well - hope you are better soon.

MrsHuxtable · 15/09/2011 21:37

Thanks Beryl,
the Working Time Directive is exactly what the solicitor mentioned as well.
I'm so glad that there are people out there who don't think I'm an unreasonable bitch who's trying to make my boss's life harder by daring to become pregnant and then questioning his self-made rules. \i'm really not trying to get money out of him, just the time that my baby is entitled to have me at home for.

DH just said something to me that I think I need to keep in mind. He said that no matter what happens with my leave, I shouldn't forget that we will have a very much loved baby at the end of this, which is the most important thing.

OP posts:
hairylights · 16/09/2011 09:11

beryl I think you are right except in a case like mine where I have every opportunity to take my Al this leave year, before my ml starts. If there is a reason I am prevented from taking my annual leave by my employer or by circumstances (like sickness or an early arrival), then they would have to either pay me in lieu or allow carry over.

Employers don't have to offer the option of me saving up this years annual leave to add on to next year simply because I am going on ml.

I have known I am pregnant since May - and will have had ample chance to take this years leave between May and January.

trixymalixy · 16/09/2011 09:29

But in the OP's situation, her mat leave runs from Jan-Jan, there is no opportunity for her to take it.

What Beryl said.

deardear · 16/09/2011 09:34

interesting thread as i am due around the same time as the OP and i am planning on taking my AL before my maternity starts - i want 3 weeks as our leave runs 1/9 to 31/8 and i will be off for that whole time.

i would ring acas and get them to email some legislation across to you and also include that in your letter to him.

i am unsure how my employers are going to be with me on ML. I am only part time and plan on taking the full 39 weeks.

hairylights · 16/09/2011 09:38

Indeed trixy. I am trying to illustrate where there may be differences, because to simply state "an employee is always allowed to carry over untaken leave after maternity leave" is misleading and not entirely accurate.

I base this on having sought very good legal advice in this issue very recently.

Op don't forget you also accrue all bank holidays while you are off on maternity leave!

MrsHuxtable · 16/09/2011 14:13

deardear,
I'm also only part-time, which is why I understand even less why my boss is behaving the way he does. Being part-time should make no difference to how your ML is handled.

hairylights, my boss doesn't give bank holidays. In fact he only gives us 4 weeks instead of the usual 5.6 but that's a whole other story.

I will phone the Maternity Action Helpline today and see what their opinion is on my situation. I want to hear as many professional opinions as possible before I write my letter to the boss. I have wondered if I should attach copies of some guidelines for him but I'm not sure if that would aggravate him even more...

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acatcalledfelix · 16/09/2011 14:50

hairylights you're incorrect about the bank holidays. The only way you'd still accrue bank holidays is if, including BH's, your leave only amounts to the minimum legal amount (is that 28 days? Not sure). In my case, I get BH's on top of my AL allowance, so I don't carry on accruing them.
So it will depend contract to contract.

OP, does your boss not give you BH's at all? Or do you get them and 4 weeks leave, or included in your 4 weeks leave? If it's included in your 4 weeks leave that is also illegal. I really feel for you!

MrsHuxtable · 16/09/2011 14:56

No bank holidays included at all. We work through them with no extra pay. I've been aware that it's not right for a while but seem to be the only one at work that cares so I decided not to rock the boat and forget about it as it's just about money.

Now that it's about time with my baby though, I'm ready to fight his attitude iyswim.

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acatcalledfelix · 16/09/2011 15:20

i'm sure you know about this
Get yourself out of there OP! Fight for all you're entiltled to now, then never ever go back!

hairylights · 16/09/2011 19:24

Contractually I get 27 days annual leave April- April plus 8 bank hols.

During my maternity leave there will be five bank holidays (between april and july) and as I will have been unable to avail of them as i will be on ml they will be adde to my leave accrual for my leave year which starts in April.

This has been checked via our legal advisors and is my entitlement on my return to work.

flowery · 16/09/2011 19:49

MrsH sounds as though there are lots of issues, and I reckon given the state of relations between you and the fact that you are planning not to go back anyway, it is probably worth a formal grievance setting out all the issues, and claiming your full holiday entitlement (not 4 weeks, 5.6 weeks), and pointing out all the appropriate legal guidance.

You can't be prevented from taking your holiday entitlement and your boss is trying to do that. You are entitled to 5.6 weeks holiday and your boss is denying you that. You can't be penalised for pregnancy-related sickness and he's doing that. You are entitled to accrue holiday while off sick anyway and he's denying you that.

See what I mean? Laws broken left right and centre and I think it would be a good idea to set each one out clearly in writing. A really good reason for doing that is that hopefully it will prompt him into taking some proper advice, which he needs by the sounds of it..

acatcalledfelix · 16/09/2011 20:41

Hairy that's great for you, and some of my friends also got BH's added on, but as long as your AL entitlement is 28days without BH's then they legally don;t have to give them to you.

MrsHuxtable · 16/09/2011 21:54

flowery,
first of all thanks for your reply. You seem to be the person on here whose advice people want to her if they have any employment issues.

I will outline all the issues in a formal grievance. I'm not scared of his reaction anymore as I really don't want to go back to an employer like that. I'm not even sure if we will still be living in the same city after my maternity leave.

Can I just double-check that you definitely think my boss can't just force me to accept money instead of my annual leave?

OP posts:
BerylStreep · 17/09/2011 12:32

OP, in a way, if you have decided not to go back after ML, it is irrelevant whether he gives you the money, or if you are on paid leave following your ML. It's still the same. You will be able to spend as much time as you want with your baby, and then decide when to look for a new job.

Naturally, I wouldn't be disclosing any such plans to your employer, but it's good to know within yourself.

MrsHuxtable · 17/09/2011 15:02

I see what you mean. I would probably go back but only until I can find another job.
It would just be nice if I had no break between jobs as otherwise I believe I won't qualify for any tax credits? Might be wrong as I never had them and am not that well informed. I know that DH can't claim them as he will still be finishing up his Phd and therefore counts as a student.

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MrsHuxtable · 17/09/2011 15:06

Which kind of means that if I don't work, we have no money apart from DH's studentship. That's how it works, isn't it?

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