lawyers! Is a 2:1 good enough to get onto a top law firm?

[vouvrey]

Hi

I'm doing a p/t law degree with the Open Uni. On track to get a 2:1 but is this good enough to get a traineeship with one of the top firms (not necessarily magic circle).

Also is it easier to get traineeships in Birmingham/The North? Do these always pay significantly less than London?

Also once you are in one of these big firms how much choice do you have about which area you specialise in?

Thanks

Someone i went to school with but am not exactly friends with iykwim is an associate at latham and watkins. Id feel quite presumptious asking her for anything after not speaking for a decade but i suppose i have to try to clutch at any straw which might help.

My previous experience was on 'the other side' eg ive represented employees at tribunals, stopped repossesions and evictions, social welfare law etc. I've never worked for a commercial business as such...

Would a llm be helpful in my circs?

Ask her, the worse that can happen is she will say no, or she may tell you who to approach and how. And you may have to get used to people saying no, before you get what you want.

And it really doesn't matter if your experience was on the other side, explain what you did and what you learned from it and why it made you interested in law enough to spend your own time and money getting the law degree. Also a lot of commercial law firms have private clients too, perhaps look at some of those and tailor your applications to that type of firm.

Sorry, whilst none of this is what you want to hear I think it is important you know the reality before spending money and arranging your life around a legal career.

I also did some interviewing/recruitment and I wouldn't pick your CV. Remember the 'top firms' you mentioned get hundreds of CVs so the only way to filter them is by applying set criteria - academic being the obvious one.

The OU 2:1 wouldn't be a deal breaker but to compete with other CVs you'd need something special on top to stand out. If I'm honest I don't think the social representation stuff would do it. It shows you are keen and dedicated but does not of itself increase your value to a city firm. Also, I would suspect that you really wanted to be a barrister but knew it would be too tough (as you have actually said more or less).

The 3rd would be a deal breaker. I would put the CV in the no pile straight away. I am sure there are mitigating factors but faced with a pile of CVs of people with 2:1s and 1sts from Oxbridge and the like, it just wouldn't be worth the risk. Also, you can't really get away with not revealing it. The big firms use CV checking agencies (mine did) so it will appear.

By all means be a lawyer - it sounds like you are really dedicated and going in to it for the right reasons but with your experience you shouldn't expect to get a job at a city firm.

Sorry, I don't mean to be disparaging but you asked the question because you said that law would only be financially viable for you if you could pull in a city salary. I really don't think that you will so you may want to rethink.

By the way there is a legal equivalent of mn - called roll on friday. If you want confirmation of what I've said try posting your question on there.

wandymum, just out of curiosity, would you also put in 'no' pile OU 1st if an applicant had 3rd in previous degree?

The whole point of me doing a whole degree from scratch again (instead of the conversion) was to 'escape' my 3rd. I never was a 3rd class student. It is bad enough that my b* ex ruined 2 years of my life, if I have no way of escaping that then he's ruined my whole life!

What is a 'cv checking agency'? I've never heard of that before. Could they really find out I have a previous degree if I dont tell them? (none of my previous jobs have required a degree)

I dont really want a job doing 'city' type law anyway. I want to get into the best firm I can but then do private client or employment type law or similar not banking/corporate law. I've thought about PSL but have heard it's competitive and not v well paid. I mean, I dont want/need a huge salary, just enough to be sole earner, buy a 3 bed house with a garden and send the DCs private. Surely that is attainable with an OU 2:1?

A regional firm is definitely a better bet than a London firm if you don't want to do city type work, your experience sounds much
more suited to a small - mid sized firm who are more likely to look at you as an individual rather than just looking for the indentikit trainee. For example my firm (regional top 60) has quite a few mature trainees from various backgrounds.

No point at all in doing an LLM - academic law is not really any use in practice, I only did the CPE and still hardly use any of it in everyday practice. What law firms want is experience and evidence of commitment - so get as much commercial legal experience as you can - apply for vac schemes, any work experience you can get will be a bonus and will also teach you how to answer application forms!

It's extremely competitive at the moment and many Oxbridge candidates who tick all of the boxes can't get training contracts. That's not to demoralise you but it's tough job market and you need to be able to offer that something extra.

Good luck!

Because I'm p/t I wouldn't be looking to start a training contract until 2015 so hopefully that will give me plenty of time to get more experience and for the economy to recover.

Short answer = no unless said law firm is parentally connected and/or you went to Public School - OR you are a mature student studying law after representing yourself expertly and won and hope to ace a postgraduate law qualification. Law is one of the most public school/top uni/connection based professions there is.. at the 'top' - But there are millions of firms who are not the top law firms and where you can earn as much if not more than those 'top' law firms especially in corporate or contentious law.

My advice would be to rack up debts and get a hardcore Postgrad qual whilst doing as much work experience/observance as you can.

A great route into employment law, is to work with Unions to get 'the other side' whilst you are pursuing other quals (if you can't get into a firm that is!).

Vouvrey - yes 3rd would be a non-negotiable no for me. I wouldn't read past that point. There are so many very well qualified applicants out there.

By CV checking agency I mean we hired a company to check whether what people put on their CVs was true (not all candidates but those who were liable to be offered jobs). I'm not sure whether they would turn up a degree that you hadn't listed but they do speak to previous employers etc and your existing university so if they know about it I suppose it might come up.

If what you want to do is private client or employment apply to those firms. I suspect the West End (which is where most of the well paying London ones are) is probably still out of reach though (sorry again ). I think your best bet is a high street firm.

As to whether that will pay enough to buy a 3 bed house and privately educate DCs I suppose it depends where you decide to live. In London that actually requires quite big bucks - I know I'm still owrking on it .

btw I have employed Oxbridge 1st lawyers who were bloody weak in court/tribunal - work hard on your personal skills and personal/mental strength - eg do lots of public speaking, doand watch lots of debates (eg go to university debates), listen to good interviewers on radio 4, learn to not be swayed by trivia in an argument, practice techniques for returning a room that is against you back to the main point (eg offer to chair some committees or meetings - and then train in chairing, then do it again - and keep doing it).

Also if employment law is your thing - be open to your contacts and friends that that is where you are going, and ask them if they have been in any employment disputes or know people who have - you would be surprised! I have had people give me their whole grievance files several times (from cases that are over with) to learn from.

I would rather have someone determined to win, who is experienced at understanding the often convoluted chess games that some cases can be, who is prepared to follow not only the book but also the route to winning than some procedural expert without determination.

btw when I say surprised, I mean it, out of six professional people I have made friends with this year 4 had been through quite serious grievances/fake disciplinaries/fraud investigations (that they were exonerated from I hasten to add. One had twice been discriminated on the basis of sex and won two tribinals - a male public school accented chap who twice had groups of female managers spread rumours about his work without evidence.. by e-mail.. copied in to him!!

Nobody confessed to any employment issues even when they were in the middle of a case, until I said a) that I had been the subject of a case and b) advised.. then it was like a river - so ask!

I did go to a private school, but all my classmates became doctors not lawyers so no contacts there.

I've got loads of extra-curricular/voluntary work experience eg been on several boards, chaired meetings, ran and brought in £1000's in funding to orgs, changed policy, published writer etc.

I was always one of those argumentative types that everyone said should be a lawyer.

Re not revealing the 3rd in the application form , I don't know about cv checkers but when I was involved in graduate recruitment in a previous role, we did look for gaps in CVs and ask for an explanation at interview. So if someone had 3 As at a level on their CV and no mention of a degree other than OU degree somewhen down the line, I would be interested to know why then had not gone to university from school. Hence unless you get into very elaborate lies, it will almost certainly come out, and I think it will look worse if you have tried to hide it. You could probably get a way with mentioning your previous degree without mentioning the grade on the CV with a note to the effect that there were major extenuating circumstances. I would then be minded to contact the HR person to explain the extenuating circumstances on the phone and ask that they are shared as nec but handled sensitively as it would be too upsetting for you to get into it at the interview itself.

Unless you know someone, I don't think there is any point in sending he cv to anyone other than the person specified on the website/ brochure who will probably be a HR person. It will just look like you can't follow instructions and the lawyers are generally told to forward things to HR to handle in any event. If you know someone, they might be able to get you an interview but they won't be able to get you a job. The firm I was at was v strict about this even to the extent of places on vac schemes- lots of clients would ask for jobs/vac scheme places for their children and the only way of managing clients expectations on this (to avoid a deluge and to avoid damage to client relationships) was to have very strict policies in
place which the lawyer could blame.

With you experience I would be looking at firms with strong employment and litigation depts.

Sorry I don't think you really have that much chance with the magic circle lot. It's not that you aren't a good candidate as a lawyer, I'm sure you are. But a 3rd followed by an OU 2.1 isn't really on a par with Oxford firsts who have loads of work experience organised by mummy/daddy and complete freedom to work like hell in their 20s. Not all Oxbridge types are perfect, but they tend to be pretty good, that's the nature of it.

I don't think they are going to be that moved by extenuating circumstances - why should they be when they've got all the best law graduates in the country applying to them? They're also not going to count 'childcare' as relevant work experience because, to be honest, it isn't. It's a valuable thing, but it's not relevant to a career in law.

I also wouldn't bother doing a masters - it's not going to affect the basic issue that you already have one not-great degree, and your second degree isn't the best possible either.

I also think you're being a bit unrealistic about being able to afford a three bed house (presumably in London) and send 3 children to private school on your salary. You will have to be making a really good whack to do that. You're looking at about 45k a year just on the school fees, let alone anything else.

It is just insane at the moment wrt getting training contracts. I think you will have a better chance if you try for smaller firms. Go for it by all means, but I think you need to think about how realistic your aims are wrt salary etc.

I am another one who would suggest that you target regional firms. Public sector is another possibility.

Being honest I don't think you'd get into a top City firm. More to the point, though, I don't think you'd necessarily enjoy it or stick at it even if you did. The hours - especially as a trainee/junior - are brutal and there is no flexibility around childcare etc until you are more senior (and often not then). The pay is decent but not really enough to support a mortgage, SAHP and private school until you are a partner, and actually very few make it that far and you have to be very talented and dedicated.

I would suggest that if you start at a less demanding firm you are more likely to make it through to the higher earning levels (i.e. partnership). And you might enjoy it more...

(Can you tell I'm a disillusioned City lawyer...)

The problem at the moment is that a lot of regional firms aren't hiring trainees....

And...I've done both city and regional and believe me it isn't much less stressful. The pressures are just very different...

Have you considered accountancy, or HR consultancy? These professions can be well-paid, also involve consultancy skills and contain many people with legal backgrounds, plus you don't have to get into any further debt for getting qualified. I'm not sure that it would pay for a house + private schooling for 3 children until you were at least senior manager level, say after about 10 years, and then not in London, but if you lived in Northumberland and sent the children to private school in Newcastle I reckon you could do it, or somewhere in Yorkshire outside Leeds, maybe?

I'm thoroughly depressed now!

Nice to hear that I've wasted 2 years of my life doing an OU degree for nothing. (Not to mention the 6 years before that doing f/t legal work experience).

I really don't think that the technicality that I have another degree should mean my job applications automatically get binned. I didn't even finish it, anyway. I didn't go to one of my finals and didn't complete my dissertation. I was awarded a 3rd because I'd done so well in assignments I had submitted that I'd earned sufficient credit to be entitled to a 3rd, surely it was better to accept that than walk away altogether? Although from what people have said on this thread I should have just dropped out.

I really don't have anything to lose by lying and omitting it do I? My parents owned a business so I could say I worked for them for a few years.

I never actually said I wanted to work for a 'city' firm, just a 'top' firm, IYKWIM. Ethically I wouldn't want to work in banking/corporate/business/finance type areas of law anyway. My ideal firm would be one with employment/private client or similar departments. I'd also prefer to be outwith London because I don't think the salaries would compensate for the higher living esp housing costs.

As far as salary expectations go, we are living below the poverty line just now so I'd expect any lawyer's salary to make us much better off. I've been on the housing ladder for a few years and have a (little) bit of equity so it's not like I'd be looking at a ftb mortgage for a house. As for the DC's schools, I only have 2 atm with big gaps so we'd only need to be paying 1 set of fees at a time, and DS is a sure thing for a scholarship, if any of the schools haven't phased them out by then, so that should reduce the cost. Also if I'm not doing killer hours then DP can still work, again boosting our income.

I'm finding it hard to believe that a lawyer couldn't afford a decent lifestyle. If they can't, then seriously, who can?

boardwalk- what do you mean by 'different pressures'?

Lcadbury- It's law I've got a passion for. I wouldn't want a high paid job just for the money.

Vouvrey,

For what it's worth I wouldn't give up or be too dis-heartened. The market is staggeringly competitive at the moment - just a few minutes looking at Trainee Solicitor or the Student Room - or at the recruitment processes of major law firms makes that quite clear. But there ARE firms out there who would be interested in you - it's just a case of lots of web-trawling to find them. As others have said they may not be the "top" ones. Go on lawcareers.net and start from there. Also, next autumn get yourself to some law fairs at nearby universities - just to get a chance to talk to people (you usually don;t need to attend such universities to go to things like Law Fairs)

reading between the lines I think you've casually asked your question on mn before you've really started to look into it all in detail for yourself - understandable as you're not looking for a training contract until 2015 - and as a result your question may have been not quite the right one. but start your own research and I'm sure you'll start to formulate more precise aims and routes to achieve them.

Pretty much all the top firms are in the City though....

Lawyers really don't make as much as people think, especially if they are not working in London and/or are not a partner. Banking, finance and corporate law are also the best paid. The ones you mentioned are less so, because they don't tend to have very rich individuals or companies as clients.

The thing about law, especially the well-paid areas of it, is that recruiters really don't have to settle for anything other than the best academically. Your CV has about 30 seconds to impress them, they will just skim the main details. All recruiters have their own standards, but I think many would just automatically judge the 3rd. You could try lying about your first degree, I suppose, but if they find out you lied you will automatically lose the job and potentially be blackballed from other firms if your name gets around.

No one's saying you'll never get a job in law or that you've wasted your time, but a trainee and then newly qualified lawyer's salary probably isn't going to be enough to support an entire family and pay for private school. I just looked it up and the average salary for a non-commercial trainee solicitor is 18,500. With some years of experience an associate could earn 50k see here Those are the figures for non-commercial law. In commercial law, training salaries aren't that much different, but partners can make in excess of 100k or much more. But only a minority of people become partners, and it involves working a lot of mad hours.

You asked the question and we have just given the honest answer.

You asked about 'top' firms and mentioned the magic circle so everyone has assumed you meant the tier of firms down from that.

It's a little worrying that you have committed 2 years of your life without doing a little research first [hmmm]. The legal press have been full of articles about how hard it is to get a training contract the last few years and even a brief skim of the law society info would have given you a rough idea of salaries.

As to having an ethical problem with corporate law then you really need to focus on a legal aid/high street type firm. Most of the well playing employment firms (including the boutique ones rather than the large corporate firms) represent companies not employees. The well paying private client firms work for wealthy private individuals and landed estates.

From what you are saying you want to work for 'the little guy' in which case this is not what top firms do. Have a walk around your area, look at local firms, find one and volunteer to work there unpaid while you finish your degree in return for experience and then hope they offer you a job at the end. You will not make lots of money out of it - for the first few years you may earn less than it costs to send one child through school.

Like the others I would have problems with the 3rd. However, I would suggest that rather than just send your CV in you take a more personal approach. Ring the HR department directly and ask if it is worth you submitting a CV. If there are extenuating circumstances behind the 3rd, explain it in a covering letter (I would mention the bereavement and hospitalisation, but not I think the DV).

You may find it easier to get a training contract outside of London. If you are good, you can then look to moving to London when you have some experience. Whether you can do this will depend on whether you have qualified into an area that there is demand for, so you many want to consider this carefully.

You asked about regional pay differentials. They are huge - certainly when comparing the top London firms with the regional firms. However, I think that many of the regional firms offer a better work/life balance and certainly know a lot of people who have moved out of London and find this to be true.

You also need to get as many vacation placements as you can - these are often more fiercely competed for than training contracts themselves so, if you apply all around the country to different types of firms, it will give you an idea of what you might expect when it comes to training contracts.

the link SueWhite gives uses rather old data. this is a much more recent - and more detailed - indication of salaries in the regions. and this is for London

just looked at that data. interesting - top city salary 3 years PQE is 116k top regional one is £51k. The latter would make school fees quite a stretch. live somewhere nice with good schools/grammar schools.

As a sort of aside - can I ask any lawyers popping in here how transparent pay tends to be? and what do big law firms that do both highly profitable stuff (commercial, PI) and legal aid and public law do? do they balance it all out and pay their lawyers who do the public law etc the same/similar? or is there a big internal difference?

It might be a difficult question, because there are very few firms that actually do both. But they do exist.