Is it unrealistic to have a city career and see your kids much?

[mickb]

Might seem like an obvious qu. but would be interested to see if anyone's come across an enlightened employer who has provided flexibility in hours to enable this to happen.

Or is this still pie-in-the sky stuff?

Most of the senior women role models in my place extol the virtues of round the clock nannies or SAHD's in order to get up the ladder. Not much evidence as far as I can see of any other way at least where I work.

Technically, I work as a consultant but working hours that are broadly convenient is not that unusual where I work. But its a relatively young company that's not afraid to break a few rules. The result is that we've been able to recruit some very, very good and experienced people who were just completely disillusioned with the ridiculous City working ethos. So generally I'm at my desk at home at 7am, work til 8.30 making sure I'm on top of the day's news, then do school run, go into the office (35min journey), arrange my meetings between 10am to finish by 2.30pm, then run off to do the school pick up. Get home,stop everyone fightingget everyone sorted, work at my desk til 5.30pm, make childrens' tea, greet DH & go back to my desk til what needs to be done is done. I couldn't have done this, though, if I'd had the DCs before I had a 'name' - DS1 was born when I was 35. The youngest are now 6. When they were little I used to use Sitters to cover me when I had to go to meetings & they watched rather more cBeebies than the thought police would like. Real downside is little if any 'me' time

I'm a solicitor and chose an environment on qualification (public sector)that I thought might be a bit kinder to me in the long term when I had children than a big firm. (Magic Circle wouldn't have looked at me once anyway!).

Initially the pay was crap although I was certainly working less hours than my friends in city firms. I was a bit envious back then. One of my best friends starting salary as a trainee is what I earnt on qualification!

As time has moved on the earnings gap narrowed although they all far outstripped me in those stakes but now we all have two or more children I'm the only one still working because I have flexible hours and part time working. This is entirely down to where I work.

I think that companies are short sighted and lose a huge amount of talent by not facilitating parents to work less than "full time". IME in terms of recruitment, working parents are committed and more motivated to work productively and effectively whilst at work, because they feel the need to "prove" that they are still worth employing.

I don't think that you can estimate the value of someone purely on the number of hours they are physically present within a business. Unfortunately that outdated viewpoint appears to be still predominant .

I work in a City related firm, I have to say it is generally on the more family friendly end, lots of my friends there with small children work 4 days, it's not that unusual for people without small children to work 4 days either which helps. We have a lot of people near retirement age who seem to like doing that.

It only works if you and the employer show flexibility and good back ups for ill children/ ill nannies etc are essential. Generally I'm at my desk before 7.30, so leave the house when DD is asleep, but try to home for 6, so my nanny can go home and I get to put DD to bed. But there are times when I have to get DH to do bedtime as well. It's also not that unusal for me to work in the evenings. I find the 30 mins on the overground train in the evenings really useful for sorting out e-mail on my Blackberry.

There are downsides, I am knackered, I find I have little "me" time to relax, I don't have enough time with DD and tend to spoil her rotten at times. But it can be doable.

haven't read all the posts - but I would say it very much depends on your performance. city salaries are negotiable - if you're good then so are the hours. dh was asked by a former boss of his to go back to his old job - dh said yes, if I can have a 4-day a week contract. (instead of saying yes for £xxx). Some years later he resigned and did consultancy work - after a few months of contracting for a particular employer he was offered a job - and again was able to negotiate his hours, and also working from home arrangements.

ps - children were never mentioned. it was just a case of putting his cards on the table as to what he was willing to do. employers couldn;t give a hoot what his reasons were (or his gender) - it was, as far as they were concerned, a straight forward deal - do we want xx amount of work from this person in exchange for xx money.

ps - children were never mentioned. it was just a case of putting his cards on the table as to what he was willing to do. employers couldn;t give a hoot what his reasons were (or his gender) - it was, as far as they were concerned, a straight forward deal - do we want xx amount of work from this person in exchange for xx money.

This thread has given me alot of food for thought over the last few days - thank you!!

I think that having children changes who we are in a fundamental way and it takes time to adjust to those changes. If we are lucky enough to be able to choose to have children and to have a career we are faced with the task of constantly balancing between career and family.

This balance changes with time. I think it's important to understand how the various parts of our life interact, make concious decisions to define the balance and know that we need to reasses this if things change. Knowing that we are doing something that we want to do and have well thought out reasons for doing makes the hard days easier to cope with.

Some posters talk about having no "me" time, for me, recognising that I have chosen to set the work life balance at it's current setting and that I have it in my power to change it if required helps with this. Yes, I don't have the same "me" time as I did before children, but I choose to make that change and the "me" that is today, is not the "me" of my twenties, and nor will it be the me of my forties / fifties.

Off now to fill stockings and make some stuffing!! Happy Christmas.

Very interesting thread. I am in the lucky position of working for local government in a high position (normally a man's job). I'm looking for ideas on how I can help others up the ladder (both male & female) in a family-friendly way. Also ideas for mentoring as I am thrilled to be where I am and would like to effectively help others get there. I hope that there is already a thread on mumsnet about this - please redirect me if so. If not, some ideas would be most welcome. I liked the ideas that came out of this discussion.

Thanks

I'm in the early stages of trying to make it work. I'm at a US IB, in a senior role, and they're being amazing. I do get the feeeling I'm a bit of an experiment for them but this is a good thing.

I took the job after 5 years of not working/working part time, and was totally up front with them at every stage about what I was willing to do. I didn't apologise for wanting flexibility (I do 5 days, but one from home - working towards 2 from home, and leave early most days - i.e. around 4), and made it clear that if they wanted me they had to be flexible. After I got the job I had a coffee with a super senior man from the States, and even he said that I could leave early then log on from home in the evening if it suited me better. I nearly fell off my chair.

I think this long hours approach is from the dark ages. In these days of blackberries and related technology, there's no need for people to sit in an office endlessly. Also, after having 3 DSs I am super efficient, don't muck around when I'm working at all, and can easily do in 35 hours what I used to do in 50 hours.

Goes without saying that I have a great nanny and I don't do ANY housework (yippee!). I'm around alot for my kids, and totally focused on them. Am also fulfilled by a stimulating job AND feel like I may, in my small way, be making a difference to women coming up behind me. Have already allowed one of my staff to WFH one day a week and this person doesn't have kids; I think flexibility should be for all and not just mothers - it's so good for people's motivation.

Mind you, I haven't come across ANY other women with kids in my environment which is a bit odd. Oh well. I like to feel like a pioneer! I also have a strong sense of my priorities - if the job doesn't work or becomes less flexible then I'm off. It's been a few months so far.

So all in all, I think things are improving. But it's up to us to push the envelope ourselves if we're in a position to. Ask for as much as you dare - they can only say no! I don't think women should have to apologise for wanting flexibility. If a good business case is made out, an employer should be willing to give it a go, with the exception of law firms who are just hideous! I nearly didn't go to the interview for this job as I didn't think that it'd offer me the sort of control over my work pattern I need - just goes to show.

Good on you, fairyteapot. You are with a good firm who seem to value you. I guess that it helps that you told them what you wanted at the outset and know that they still want you on those terms. Is an IB an international bank?

I am fortunate in that there is a playgroup in the adjacent building and so I was able to drop my DD off there 15 mins after my work started. She learnt quite quickly, even at 2 years old, that she had to come to work with me for the first 15 mins and had to sit drawing or playing quietly in the corner. It was quite ironic that I could hear the chatter of the tearoom from my desk, and I was being so much more productive than they were. Neither of my previous or present bosses had an issue and I felt very fortunate. It was hard at first not to stare out of the window at the darling kids playing in the rear garden, and to position myself in meetings downstairs so that I did not sit staring into the garden at my DD playing.

The work culture here is very family orientated, anyway, and so it is perfectly acceptable for me to excuse myself from an overruning morning meeting by saying I had three starving children in the car.(I'd only say it if it were true, and on occasion, I would nip out and give the DD's five pounds and send them to the next door shop to buy myself 15 more minutes in the meeting). I suppose I am fortunate, but I also make very sure that I do not take advantage, and do more hours than I am paid for, and work bloody hard when I am here.

School events are allowed in work time to a minor degree, although meetings would always take precedence.

I guess one way forward is to make sure that the present system is continued and not allowed to fall by the wayside on account of occasional raised eyebrows, and I guess that the way to do this is by allowing the same flexibility to those without children.

More ideas and experience still welcome, though....

Ps Envy you the lack of housework, fairyteapot. That is my dream, but only achieved by my letting it all go. But I find that you can't let it all go - disease and pestilence soon follow. And naked children with no clothes to wear.... Ah, well...

Isitmidnight - IB stands for Investment Bank.

Fairy - good on you - it was an IB tha treated me really well when I did a 4 day role. The big 4 in comparison I struggle with in terms of values. Do let me know if your place is recruiting (No, really. I have 22 yrs FO IB experience in me back pocket...)

I found that I couldn't have the career I wanted in my chosen field and any relationship with my children.
They were in nursery for 11 hrs a day and at the end of that I had conference calls, reports and budgetary reworkings before speaking to any of my direct reports that I "owed" a phone call to.
I became a stressed depressed heap and on reflection thoroughly unpleasant.
All the other members of our board were either male with SAHW or in the case of the other woman childless.
Our HR Manager was a nightmare as she viewed children as akin to an illness and constantly banged on about how unfair it was to have to have the business wait whilst women took mat leave.
I will retrain and do something else but at least I now know what my children like to eat and sometimes they ask for mummy

Good on you fairyteapot- you sound like just the sort of senior woman role model that I would love to have in my place. As it happens I work in a US IB too but found that they weren't prepsred to do much in the way of flexibility when I requested it. I would have been the first to obtain it at my level and they didnt want to "open the floodgates" (my boss' words not mine). My request for flexibility was regarded as a weakness - my now ex-boss also said that he didn't think I had been ready to have a child given my reaction to it (ie my request for more flexibility!). Would love to speak further if you have time- women like you are an inspiration to the rest of us struggling in an old fashioned world..

I have found all of this very intersting. My issue is that I agree, when you get to a certain level of seniority, it's doable if you have a team around you. However, in my case, I'm not there yet and don't yet earn enough for us to hire the full time nanny etc. So my choices are to give up all hopes of furthering my career, or struggle along, hoping for the best and knowing I won't always be around when my DC are small.

It's very difficult.

I'm veering toward walking away from my career despite my employer trying to be as reasonable as possible. Whilst it is a FT role I can often work 2 or 3 days from home and have some flexibility in school holidays. The problem is that my work does impact on the family - I tend to work late into the evening to compensate for picking up the kids from school and looking after them until bedtime.

In many ways it was easier before they started primary school as they were in FT nursery so I worked longer hours 'in the office'. The straw that is breaking the camel's back however is the 110 mile round commute which sees me leaving the house at 6.15 and returning at 7 in the evening.

I do know if I leave my job however I won't get another role like it, or as well paid. I am aware though that I'm missing out on my kids' formative years and that is starting to weigh heavily. There doesn't seem to be an easy answer.

Tattygirl. It is very hard, isn't it? And you don't know if you walk away , if that will be the end of your career at that level in that field. But then you only get onwe chance at raising your kids.

I always remember that someone said the more time you invest in your children before they are 18, the less you will have to invest in them when they are adults. I guess that means less major issues of relationship problems, addictions, dependencies on booze, social problems etc when they are older. That is the thought that I compensate myself with when I find I have no 'me time' at all. One day I will have some.

I find it easier now the children are all at school. Although now it would be too late to give it all up as most of the time they are at school, and some of the time they would rather be doing other things. I also fear that I would become quite bored and boring. Or get involved in just as much, but on a voluteer basis, and so have the business but not the income - double loser.

Let us know how you get on with your decision-making,Tatty girl. And keep us posted, Fairyteapot, on how it is giong.

echo what others have said - well done fairy. You sound like in many ways you have done similar to dh - what you said about not being apologetic - it takes a certain level of confidence to do this - but to put your cards on the table is definitely the right way.

Also I think you're really striking a blow by offering flexibility to non-parents (you don;t say if it was a man or a woman - extra points if it was a man!)

These two things combined start to transform flexibility into part of a business/commercial deal - just part of the contract that exists between employee and employer - rather than being seen as a compromise for the employer - one that is intrinsically related to children, and mainly relevant to women.

And I really believe we need to move away from this in order to get gender equality and fair treatment for parents.

foxinsocks - your comment on page 2 of this I completely agree with. It is possible with juggling and having "rules" you adhere to. I think it helps to have fantastic childcare (i.e. they truly are part of the family), you have excellent technology(!) and work with people who can cope with you working remotely sometimes (i.e. from home!)

I recently pulled the pin on my City career - wanted reduced hours/flexibility but couldn't get it...
That's alright, they've got the next load of young female hires through - no doubt they're spouting all the same work-life balance nonsense I was suckered into. Just wait until you have babies!

Me again. I think the key to it working out for me (so far) is down to my boss, who is from a tech background where people have worked flexibly for years. He does so himself (doesn't have kids, yet), and totally gets it. If he hadn't, I'd never have gone for the job. I have to say I was looking for a role for a good 6 months but was ruled out of lots of things due to a refusal to do 5 days in the office. So, I held out for the right thing, had the confidence in interview to be upfront about my desires, and so far so good.

I still think that out of, say, 6 jobs, 1 may have a hiring manager who's flexible. So - it's like finding the man of your dreams, you have to kiss alot of frogs first!!

We will change things together slowly but surely. I'm convinced things will be v. different for our DDs and DSs; just as the feminists of the 70s paved the way for us to have the option to work as well as be a mother, we are paving the way for the next generation to be able to do both in a more satisfying way.