Trans women are women but

yes. It is something to fight for!

If Stonewall etc had been campaigning for third gender neutral spaces all this time, & leaving single sex spaces alone, & if that went for sports, prisons, rape crisis centres etc, then a lot of this fight simply wouldn’t be necessary.

But they reject the idea because it’s all about the validation of having access to the women’s spaces that matters.

But transitioned males are not 'women'. They are males who are living a version of what they perceive as being a 'woman'.

Why is it the women's job to campaign for this?

Trans women are NOT women: they are trans women. And kindness matters, and respect of other human beings matters, but so does common sense. If my cat has surgery and replaces its tail and ears with a dog tail and ears, it isn't miraculously a dog. Just because it acts, "thinks" ior "believes" it is a dog, it's still, factually, a cat. Biologist and science are not negated by feelings, emotions, or beliefs.

yup
if I say I am a Zanussi washing machine am I one?

Third spaces/gender neutral spaces/additional categories have been suggested umpteen times on this board. The question I see most asked by people new to this board is 'why can't 3rd spaces be created?'

Again and again we are told by TRA's it is transphobic.

Again and again we are told it's othering.

A Google search of Mumsnet third spaces will bring up countless threads discussing it.

And as pp have said, why haven't Stonewall et al been fighting for this?

And as pp have said, why it is women's job to fight for this?

I would have previously been quite happy to support and fundraise for such spaces etc but now? After the all out attack on women's spaces/categories etc? No.

"I believe everyone has the right to identify as they choose"

You lost me right there.

Op, third spaces alongside single sex spaces have been suggested numerous times.However TRAs don’t want that those, because it won’t validate their womanly feelz. It’s all about validation!

Women have enough to do without having to run after men who claim to be women. Any time I spend campaigning will be for the benefit of WOMEN, not men who like to style themselves as such for whatever reason.

Unfortunately, I don't think both 'transwomen are women' can exist with your provisions OP.

Because we have already seen that transitioned males have then used that very excuse as an argument to access sports and other spaces. They have used that very claim that as 'society' sees them as 'women' then they should have the things they demand.

Have you seen those claims OP? I am happy to provide you with at least one transitioned male using that exact argument.

Can you tell us how you see the phrase co-existing with your provisions? Because the lobby groups would disagree with you and I am not sure how we can move the argument forward from there.

But transitioned males are not 'women'. They are males who are living a version of what they perceive as being a 'woman'.

The only way to get a proper grip on this is to understand that "transition", as it has now evolved to mean, and as the term is now used, can be as little as the occurrence in a man's head that in some way he perceives himself as being a woman or as having some kind of feminine essence.

Make and amend laws, and change society based on that version of "transition". Get the public to express their view as to how the world should change based on this.

Womens spaces, gender neutral spaces and mens spaces seems the most logical solution as it would also work for people who are gender neutral, none binary and pan gender. Surely that's the thing to be fighting for?

You'd think that would be the perfect solution.

But it was never about not being safe to go into the men's toilet as a TW or all those TW and NBs would have been demanding the provision of third spaces.

It took me a while to realise it too, but the goal is for men who call themselves women to get into whichever the space the women and girls are in.

If a third space was created and ALL women and girls used the third space, leaving the former ladies' provision for the TW, they would start using the third space. It is the presence of women that they crave, either to validate that they are just like us (they're not, seeing as they are male) or to show that they don't give shit our boundaries, dignity, privacy and safety.

The 'othering' thing.

So then you say right. Fine. So the women's space becomes the all women's spaces (male and female ones - yes, I know, personally I think it's nuts but inclusion and kindness and tolerance being a thing and let's all compromise yada yada) and we'll have an additional female only space for the females who cannot share mixed spaces and frankly don't care about being othered because they really do just want to use the space to meet a physical need and don't want to end up with no access to those spaces or services at all. We'll be othered, we don't care.

Then you get the next wave of rage and whining and realise that the issue is not the 'othering' it's that there would be a group of females unconquered and allowed to not comply, a space not conquered and that means there's a part of femalehood that male people cannot own and take from female people. And when you dig a bit further you often encounter a belief that until those resisting female people in the female spaces are the ones doing the validating there's a bit of womanhood not yet achieved .

And you realise that as a biological female, these males see you merely as props. Tools. For their use. And the rage at you not mummying their needs and daring to have a life of your own that does not revolve around their inner selves blows their capacity apart.

I'm afraid the answer to that is not to be kind or sympathetic or compassionate - because God knows those males have none of that to offer to anyone else. The answer is that those male people are going to have to get over themselves and live with the idea that other people have needs too and the whole world cannot revolve 24/7 around them. And that wishing to prevent people having their needs met at all in order to be satisfied that you have the most, and more and are more important and special than anyone else, is something most three year olds have figured out is inappropriate.

Frankly many of us at this point would be happy with a toilet in a cupboard with a large label of 'Witch bitch bigot who should die in a grease fire' and not care if there weren't any males in there.

“And you realise that as a biological female, these males see you merely as props. Tools. For their use. And the rage at you not mummying their needs and daring to have a life of your own that does not revolve around their inner selves blows their capacity apart”

Spot on!

So do I have the right to identify as being black by putting on some make up and act as though I’ve been ‘feeling’ black all my life and know how it feels being black etc. Yeah but no but. Trans women are not women. Let’s leave it at that.

"...as little as the occurrence in a man's head that in some way he perceives himself as being a woman or as having some kind of feminine essence."

Or actually just the decision to say that he does?

the problem is, for TW it’s the women in the spaces that make the spaces worth being in

if it was genuinely about safety & not violating women’s boundaries third spaces would be the answer & stonewall would have campaigned for them

but it isn’t so they don’t

So I believe everyone has the right to identify as they choose.

I don't. Otherwise, why can't I identify as a lion and live in the zoo? Or identify as a 7 year old and join the year 3 class at the local primary school?

Males can wear lipstick and high heels in the men's room and squeal in high-pitched tones on male athletic teams.

I agree that third spaces are the obvious solution.

If someone feels they are more female than their genitalia suggests

What do you mean by this? I genuinely don't understand what "more female" means. You either are female or male, unless you are one of the handful of people where it is genuinely unclear.

Actually I do "believe everyone has the right to identify as they choose" but how that operates in the real world has to be a negotiation and it has to recognise that if there will be a conflict of rights, others can object and their objections must be genuinely accounted for and have to be part of any solution.

This means that the expression of some identities will be restricted to the home of the identifiers or private spaces where that is sanctioned.

I agree, people do have the right to identify however they choose.
They don't have the right to force me to agree, that they are that identity though.

Everyone does indeed have the right to identify / see themselves as they choose. What they DON'T have the right to do is force everyone else to (pretend to) see them the way they see themselves by way of threats - whether that's the threat of physical violence, arrest or loss of livelihood.