We may be temporarily, in this period of strange enlightenment, find our speech somewhat curtailed. (whilst some of those who disagree hold up decapitate terf signs, and men roam women prisons) But this to shall pass. And no matter what, whether this takes months or years, no one gets to decide or force what we are thinking and know in our heads.

The truth is the truth. Even if we aren't allowed to say it right now.

What I drew from the last minute or so of the video was that being a barrister matters more to Robin than sounding like a woman.

Oh, I'm mad alright, Robin. Just not in the way you meant.

I know Edinburgh has a transwoman CEO, who I at first assumed was recruited to support specialist services for trans people but went the full TWAW, no single sex services and if women don't like it then "reframe their trauma". I didn't think there was anything active going on right now. In the meantime I am watching Sussex with interest, and with concern for the woman at the centre of it, who has had her family and her livelihood threatened just for wanting a women-only service among the assorted mixed-sex groups already on offer.

It reminds me of the famous scene from Oliver Twist:

The gruel disappeared; the boys whispered each other, and winked at Oliver; while his next neighbours nudged him. Child as he was, he was desperate with hunger, and reckless with misery. He rose from the table; and advancing to the master, basin and spoon in hand, said: somewhat alarmed at his own temerity:
'Please, sir, I want some more.'
The master was a fat, healthy man; but he turned very pale. He gazed in stupified astonishment on the small rebel for some seconds, and then clung for support to the copper. The assistants were paralysed with wonder; the boys with fear.
'What!' said the master at length, in a faint voice.
'Please, sir,' replied Oliver, 'I want some more.'
The master aimed a blow at Oliver's head with the ladle; pinioned him in his arm; and shrieked aloud for the beadle.
The board were sitting in solemn conclave, when Mr Bumble rushed into the room in great excitement, and addressing the gentleman in the high chair, said,
'Mr Limbkins, I beg your pardon, sir! Oliver Twist has asked for more!'
There was a general start. Horror was depicted on every countenance.
'For MORE!' said Mr Limbkins. 'Compose yourself, Bumble, and answer me distinctly. Do I understand that he asked for more, after he had eaten the supper allotted by the dietary?'
'He did, sir,' replied Bumble.
'That boy will be hung,' said the gentleman in the white waistcoat. 'I know that boy will be hung.'
charlesdickenspage.com/twist-more.html

I imagine the Sussex Survivors' defense team - "Sara Summers has aked for a women-only group !?!".

Yes @EdithStourton and that Robin calculated the risks of modifying Robin's voice to be too high and that Robin's ability to perform Robin's paid employment may be jeopardised and so they decided not to risk surgery.

And yet, Robin advocates that children and young people, who have not yet even set foot on the lowest rings of a career ladder, should risk absolutely everything in a situation in which they not only cannot comprehend the risks because they lack the cognitive ability , life experience, decision making skills etc but they also can't possibly know the impact of medicalisation and surgery because it's basically largely experimental and the data to weigh up the possible outcomes doesn't even exist. They may have issues with work and employment forever if repeated surgeries, life long drug dependence and potential cognitive impacts of treatment are part of the fall out.

Talking of I am Sarah,

Off support her thread

STANDING RIGHT BESIDE YOU

I know you probably sometimes feel, you are doing this on your own.
Left to fight the Righteous Mighty(!?!), to get them to atone.

But, if anything these last few weeks have proved beyond a doubt,
for the women here, the one name, that to them does call and shout

is @IamSarah who is fighting for us all, for that most sacred of places,
and the right for ALL US WOMEN to have bloody female spaces!

So we might be faceless names on the mobile in your hand,
but remember, we are with you, fighting bullies of this land.

So when you feel down, think the fight too much and wish the whole thing done,
picture all us women, gardening beside you, in the glorious noontime sun.

We’ll be there to pay the bills, provide moral support; some will hold your hand for real too.
But through the rest of all this shit, remember @IamSarah
WE ARE STANDING RIGHT BESIDE YOU SHOUTING WE ARE SARAH TOO.

Bravo, Boiled!

Well if Robin gets to crash Sarah's support thread we get to crash this thread on Sarah's behalf.

I'm curious about this. Why did Sarah resort to verbal gymnastics?

After I watched Free Speech Nation on YouTube yesterday I left it on auto play and ended up listening to some GB News segment with Laurence Fox.

He was talking about this subject (I forget what exactly) and suddenly paused and said ‘Ofcom face’ then carried on!

I appreciated Sarah’s studied pronoun avoidance as it what I frequently have to do when our back bedroom is full of Genderweird/Genderspecial teenagers 😬

*RobinMoiraWhite · Yesterday 10:09

I care because I remember so very clearly how horrible a time it was for me.*

If you are reading, Robin, let me quickly tell you about my puberty.

I was nine when I started my periods in the early 1980s. It was so humiliating. The other children - boys and girls - were morbidly fascinated and used to lift up my skirt to try and see my pad, or the blood. I was followed into the girls loos by a gang of boys once, who wrestled me to the floor, took my pad and went running into the playground with it, laughing and waving it about. Thank God the assault wasn't worse.....

I also had C cup breasts. I was tiny, the smallest in my class, with this woman's body and other kids would poke, stare, point, ask questions. I was continually followed around by kids snapping my bra strap.

The teachers were utterly useless, they had no idea what to do and I was never offered any privacy. I had to change for PE with everyone else - boys only on the other side of a flimsy partition, used to peer through the holes at me getting undressed and the girls around me used to think it was funny to snatch away the clothes or towels I was trying to cover myself up with so the boys could see.

I would have done ANYTHING to be spared all that. I would have gobbled up puberty blockers. If I was that 9 year old girl today I would be consuming tiktok and other social media, I would be begging for another choice.

Turns out, though, although it was horrible it was actually completely the correct puberty for me and I am so glad I am now a fully intact, functioning woman - albeit peri menopausal, a whole other story, hey Robin?

I'm curious about this. Why did Sarah resort to verbal gymnastics?

Utimately, @Spero can answer for herself @oldwomanwhoruns (love the user name, btw!) but I saw it as Ms Philimore trying to be respectful and polite, so not "misgendering" a transwoman, but also not prepared to deny reality.

It was a very good discussion, and makes me wish that the #nodebate mantra was banished to oblivion. We need debate.

Oh rabbitwoman that sounds so awful

(Sorry if that was a thread derail - but it was RMW who mentioned Sussex and Edinburgh in the interview and said there was no evidence that this was really a problem, which is contradictory when it's a service user bringing the case.)

Surely if they are clients of RMW, then there are issues? Why would they be clients of a barrister if there wasn't court cases?

I'm going to go against the tide here, but I think Robin has a lovely speaking voice. Reminded me a bit of that bloke off Cabin Pressure.

Was that a performance plaid, or was it so cold in that studio there was a need to bundle up?

I think Sarah handled the pronouns very diplomatically, although sometimes there were more Robins than a Christmas mantlepiece.

I think Sarah's interpretations of the voice remarks was fair and she apologised fully and promptly when corrected. Something some tras (looking at you LRM) could learn from.

rabbitwoman · Today 10:21
rabbitwoman, what a brave little girl you had to be. What happened to you was particularly awful. 💐

although sometimes there were more Robins than a Christmas mantlepiece

😆

Well, I certainly grew into a kick arse and brave woman so not all bad.....

And I work in a school...... 😉

It was not conscious. I have always asserted that I would use preferred pronouns to be 'polite' but when the time came, my tongue rebelled. I simply could not refer to 'she' and 'her' with regard to someone who presents as masculine. I don't think this is about bigotry, I think it is about how my brain is wired to understand and process language. I accept that 'gratuitous and indiscriminate' 'misgendering' as per Forstater EAT judgment ought to be avoided but I am concerned to note that I am now accused of 'disguised hate speech' and 'degendering' for using Robin's name!

It seems that women can't win.

It also seems to me that politeness and consideration cut both ways. If Robin had been able to concede that it was wrong to call women 'completely mad' who argue that there is a tension between the rights of women and the rights of men to be called women, then possibly I would have made more of an effort to afford Robin the pronouns Robin wants.

But it was very disappointing to see that a straightforward question did not received the courtesy of a straightforward response. This continued demonisation of women as 'mad' and 'hateful' for raising arguments now confirmed as legitimate by Lord Hope, the EHRC, the UK government etc etc etc has got to stop. I don't think anyone has any legitimacy demanding preferred pronouns when they are prepared to be in denial about the legitimacy of women's concerns.

But I continue to applaud Robin for attending - I have noted with some horror and disgust the really revolting comments many have made on line about Robin's appearance. No one should have to be subjected to that and it does 'our side' no credit. But the issue is and remains for me that Robin presents as a man, that is what I see and hear. The only solution that Robin offered is to ensure that children are saved from this by 'going through the right puberty'.

If you are born male, you simply cannot go through any other puberty but a male puberty. This is what needs to be told loud and clear to any child who is being encouraged to go down that route. I am sorry that Robin has been denied the opportunity to have the kind of voice Robin would have preferred. I have been denied the opportunity to live as an able bodied person. Sometimes, we just have to suck it up. Regardless, we have no rights to demand that others are simply bit players on the stage of our own particular fantasies.

I find it hard to believe that there is any good faith coming from TRAs & their ilk when they advocate NOT to exclude convicted rapists or child abusers from womens prisons or from having their bit of paper to say they think they are not a man.

Surely, if there is such a thing as a genuine man who thinks he is not a man, then, that man would also be at risk from the convicted criminal who harms those who are women?

Why do the rights of those who commit rape & murder against women matter more than those women or of children?

Nobody who has a shred of decency should be insisting rapists get the right to a false identity & the surrounding safeguarding issues where working with children requires the good faith of a convicted child molester to disclose his name change.

@spero you were magnificent in that interview & your response here is magnificent, in your very calm rational & understated way.

I sympathise with your tongue's rebellion. I used to be OK about using preferred cross-sex pronouns, but as the TRAs/MRAs have become more vociferous, I have become less kind.

You were also so, so patient in the face of the mansplaining to you as if you were an ignoramus on these matters. And the constant changing the subject or topic, and not answering the questions put (the 'mad women' question was only one of several). I note that while you clearly and unreservedly apologised for your comment about Robin White's voice, you did not receive even an acknowledgement that calling women "mad" is the very reverse of respectful.

It did make me wonder, yet again, in general terms why men who seem so to despise us want to be us.

(And I'm jealous of you meeting Andrew Doyle - he is my current embarrassing crush).

I think we are very lucky to have Andrew Doyle. He is very good at bringing out the essential points in a debate and I hope Robin and other trans people will agree and accept that he is genuine in his desire to hear all sides of an argument and provide a platform for robust but respectful free speech.

Id comment but I got deleted last time I mentioned anything to do with voi🤐

@IcakedefargeIam You are the gift that just keeps on giving

I'm not good at picturing things in my head, but that oh, the image .

I used to have Christmas santa hat fairy lights years ago that hung over the mirror and mantlepiece (yes it was as classy as it sounds). I'm imaging the same scene but with little perfect replica Robin fairy lights😶instead of the hats.

It's beautiful. You get an extra large slice for that.

🍰

Just a reminder of the petition to update the Equality Act to make clear that ‘sex’ means biological sex,
⬇️
www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4668426-petition-update-the-equality-act-to-make-clear-the-characteristic-sex-is-biological-sex?page=1

RW's voice is quite something, what I'd assume to be RW's reasons for keeping it are, I suppose, fairly depressing - that kind of voice, that of an upper middle class, middle aged, man, is 'the voice of authority' in this country, it's the one that commands the most respect and credibility, clearly advantageous for a barrister.

I once saw a lecture by RW which included a depressing story about how RW was basically denied a job on account of being trans. Putting an end to that sort of thing strikes me as very much 'the good fight' from a 'trans lobby' perspective, completely distinct from instances were trans and female interests come into conflict.