can you help me out with this?

[booyhoo]

i have been lurking around feminism/women's rights for the past few days and have decided to make a change in my life.

although my OH says all the right things when we discuss housework/ division of chores/ childcare issues it doesn't last and i inevitably end up doing the lion's share of it all, he will when asked. now we have an unusual sort of set up in that he is forces and away 90% of the time so naturally everything falls to me. this, i have no problem with. my problem is that when he is here it is still me that does it all. we have talked about it before and OH says that no1, he wants me to stop nagging about him doing things and no2 because he isn't here he doesn't know what needs done and when. which leaves me with the issue of telling him what needs done without him seeing it as nagging. but i also think that his reasons are a bit of a cop out. e.g; he knows that i put a wash on every night, he knows i make the bed every morning, he knows that the washing comes in each night, gets folded and put away, and he knows that dinner needs cooked each evening so really i shouldn't need to be reminding him about this stuff.

so, to my point, following on from me printing off the inspirational quotes from the other thread and putting them up in my house i would like to put up an inspirational quote/phrase for him that would make him feel like he should be doing all thses things. something that will dig at his male pride. not something that slags him of for not doing it but something that will make him feel proud to do it. as in "a real man does x,y and z" or " you are an adult when you can do x, y and z for yourself"

does anybody have anything i could use or could you help me with putting something together? i would also like it to be inspirational for my dcs when they are older.

[booyhoo]

we have done that, and i also have awhiteboard on the fridge with everything that needs done daily and what jobs get done on what days. it is just easier for him not to do it or forget, and then i give him the look and say, "i dont want to nag but x needs done" and he'll say yeah "I'l do it" and either starts it and gets distracted or sits down and then i say "well ae you gonna do it?" then he rolls his eyes and makes out like i am nagging, it's catch 22.

we agreed at xmas when he was home for 7 weeks that one of his jos was hanging out the washing everyday. yet everyday if i didn't do it he wouldn't and when i reminded him he would say, "there's no point doing it now." "or it wont dry today" or some other reason not to do it. so i ended up soing it. a few weeks ago he had been at a wedding and came home around midday the following day (this was the plan, he didn't just stay out) we had arranged to go out in the afternoon so while i was tidying up and getting the dcs organised i asked him to hang the washing and said he would but then he lay down on the sofa. i held my tongue for an hour, thinking ok he is hungover. but then i ad to remind him otherwise we would go out and the washing would still be in the machine. it does feel lie i am dealing with another child. even ds1 (4) does what i ask when i ask.

[BertieBotts]

Just my opinion - but if it was the other way around, I'd feel really patronised by having a sign telling me a real adult/man/person does X Y or Z. I wouldn't see it as inspiring TBH. That might just be me though.

I would probably take a different approach and just have a chat with him along the lines of "Look, we have a problem here. I feel as though I always end up doing the lion's share when you are home even when we work stuff out. Can we work together on this?" Perhaps you could start by over the course of a couple of weeks when he is away, at the end of each day list everything you have done that he could potentially have helped with if he was there. Or write yourself a big "to do" list and stick it up on a noticeboard or something, which are the jobs which need to be done in the house that day to keep the house running, and just remind him/the children when they are old enough, that you approach it as a team (maybe think of a less cheesy word though!) and something like every time you start a job say "Oh, give us a hand with this will you?" "Love, could you bring the washing in for me while I get the dinner on?"

Basically try to come around to the idea (and ask him to) that the household chores are your "job" and when he's there, he is a "colleague", and when they are finished, you are both back to the roles of husband and wife but there is no more housework and you are free to do as you please.

[booyhoo]

bertie i had worried it might come accross like that, i just dont know what will work with him though. we have had so many conversations about it and while he says the right things at the time, when it comes down to it he just doesn't do it. the amazing thing is he does it all for himself when he is living away so i know he can, i just get the impression that he thinks it is my job when he is home.

[booyhoo]

i am trying to avoid asking him to "give me a hand" or "bring the washing in for me" because it isn't for me is it? when he is here it is his washing aswell, and his dcs' washing.

[BertieBotts]

No, that's true - it's not for you, it's for all of you.

I don't know, sorry. I am not very good at wording things - the idea is there but the wording doesn't come right really.

[booyhoo]

i know, it is hard to express what i actually want to get across to him without it sounding like nagging or patronising or having a dig.

[Iggisonthesofa]

For reasons I don't quite understand, DH thinks it is immoral to have a cleaner. If he doesn't do enough round house my threat is that we are getting a cleaner. It works (for a time).
We did once have a sticker chart in the past - worked quite well for a time (we both got stickers if jobs done). That was before DC mind so was more of a joke.

[booyhoo]

so i should threaten to get a cleaner?

anytime i do throw a wobbly over the housework he throws in the much loved (by him) "are you hormonal?" GRRRRRRRRRR

we have been at breaking point over it and i have told him it cannot go on the way it has been and he trots out what he knows will get me to calm down and change my mind.

i dont want to treat him like an infant, because that would give him the right to treat me like his mother.

i just dont know how to make him get it,maybe he cant and we just cant work. i know i cant keep givig in.

[frikonastick]

i just stopped doing anything. its much more difficult with DCs, but if you are willing to grit your teeth and bare it, it works.(it was the hardest thing ever for me because i am a control freak).

because the thing is, your DH 'gets it' alright. he just knows that you will give in before he does.

[Iggisonthesofa]

It's like a game of chicken, isn't it. My DH reads feminist literature, is completely pro-equality, but just has this trouble putting principles into action.. and then he always says (rightly) that he does so much more than most men.. well yes, but it's still not 50% so it's not enough!

[SarahMumtoAlex]

Something often overlooked in this kind of situation is who gets to define the to do list.

You sound like you do a lot more housework than me. I wouldn't be prepared to do half of that as my 'share'.

This is a very common problem women have higher standards for their home. Perhaps you could start by getting him to discuss what he thinks needs to be done, and get some compromise that way.

Our house isn't as clean as I would like it, but DH and I share what gets done fairly.

[TheBossofMe]

I think the forces thing probably plays a part - he has to be so disciplined and look after himself completely for 90% of the year, that he's probably seeing this as his holiday for 5 weeks a year where he doesn't have to do any of this.

Of course, that only works if you also get 5 weeks a year when you don't have to do anything.

[EightiesChick]

I agree with Bertie that the inspirational signs would not work for me. I appreciate that isn't very helpful as I have no better solutions to offer. The idea to just stop doing stuff is the best I can think of.

[foreverastudent]

He wont start doing the work until you stop doing it.

He's playing you. He knows that you'll give in first and do the work he should be doing.

Leave everything to him for a week, then he'll appreciate how much you do.

[booyhoo]

the thing is, he usually only home for a weekend at a time, so there is far less to do at the weekend, just the basics like the washing, cooking, and keeping the house generally presentable. i dont do hoovering or windows or bathroom on the weekend. so he knows that even if i dont do it while he is here, he will be gone again on sunday evening and i will do it all on monday. so he would happily not do any washing, leaving it in the basket knowing that i will do it because i want the basket empty. i gues i could just leave all his washing unwashed (yuck) for a month in the basket, or put it into a bin liner so it wasn't stinking my clothes. but stuff like tidying the kitchen and doing dishes needs done, bt he can leave on sunday without having to worry about them. and yes he does keep his digs very tidy when away so i know he can-because there is no woman to do it for him

[BlairWaldorfsHairband]

Have the same issue except for the being away and forces part. We both work full time and no kids.

The only thing we stick to is alternating the washing up. Everything else only gets done if I do it, even though we have a kind of list of when we are going to do things each week like hoover, clean bathroom, washing twice a week. If I ask him to put something in the bin or dirty clothes in the basket I get told he will do it but this infuriates me as most of the time it still isn't done the next day or I just have to say something and get accused of nagging, feel awful when he then does it. He keeps telling me to give him more time to do something after I ask him to, but really, doesn't everyone get brought up knowing how to clean up after themselves? I just do not get it. I too would hate leaving it until he did it - for one thing, he wouldn't, ever, and for another, I hate to live like that. It is driving me insane at the moment

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

I like the binliner idea Booyhoo, would he get the message if he came home for the weekend and had to stay in uniform as his civvy stuff was crumpled in a sack?

As you have DC, have you explained to him that he needs to parent them while he is there, since that's hardly ever? Stuff like cooking for them and helping with homework, ironing etc is the real looking-after stuff. I would have thought my dad was hardly my parent at all if he'd just lain around like a big lad.

Also if he's doing the washing while you're doing the cleaning (or whatever), you'd have more time together for just the two of you. Since he's used to discipline () would it work if you were to say, right it's 10 o'clock now, by 10.15 we can have the washing in and the kitchen clean, then we can go out?

[booyhoo]

it's worth a try. anything is. he isn't home again for 2 weeks sothat gives me time to practise saying it without sounding like a nag. it sems so ridiculous that i actually have to think of the best way to get my OH to do a bit of housework.

[HerBeatitude]

I would stick to the message that if he doesn't do his fair share in the home, he is treating you as a skivvy. And people don't treat people they love and respect as skivvies, so every time he does that, you feel less loved and respected and is that what he wants?

And when he calls you a nag, it is a time honoured male tactic to stop women demanding fairness and respect - it is a horrible, mysogynist insult in this context.

I'd stick to the argument that what he's doing is hurting you. And people who love each other, try not to hurt each other.

Don't know if any of that is any use to you. Good luck.

[booyhoo]

you are right herbeatitude, it is the right advice, it is advice however, that i have already used in the past and thought it had worked. i really really dont want to turn into the nagging housewife stereotype and OH knows this so i think you are right about it being a tactic.

i am just going to give it to him straight when he is home that we need to sit down and decide what jobs are going to be his and if he doesn't do them then we will have big problems.

[HerBeatitude]

Yes men know that you don't want to be that stereotype - it's an incredibly powerful weapon, to back someone into a behaviour they don't want to do, so that they feel shit about themselves because they are doing it, or alternatively, to give up demanding what's fair and feel let down and resentful because they are being short-changed and there's no way of changing that without going back to feeling bad. It's a no-win situation and it's a really awful thing to do to someone who loves you, who you claim to love. It can't be emphasised enough.

It also needs to be emphasised that whenever he treats you like this, you lose a bit of respect for him because he's not treating you with respect - and that erosion of respect is bad for your long term relationship. When it's put in those terms, many men are quite shocked by how much this matters.

I think every time you are tempted to either nag or give in and do it yourself, you need to look at him straight and ask him if he remembers that conversation where you talked about your worries about his love and respect for you and if he's now going to walk the walk, or behave like the average bog-standard man.

Make it a matter of your respect for him as well and his respect for himself - knowing that you regard him as better than the average man and expect better from him, is good for his self-esteem. I know lots of women put up with this shit but IMO that's one of the reasons the divorce rate is so high and why women are more likely to initiate a divorce than men - this stuff genuinely is corrosive, it eventually spills over into other areas of the relationship.