Recommend me a book!

[RibenaBerry]

Right, reading these boards recently has given me a bit of a kick up the arse on my feminist principles. I've done a bit of 'light' reading in the area (think The Beauty Myth as a teenager) but think I need something a bit more serious without being so weighty I never pick it up. I'd rather have something published in, say, the last 15 years than any of the 'classics'.

Any ideas?

Yes, Blackduck, that is the main point here. WOmen are 'other', therefore anyone outside the norm must therefore be a woman
Frankly, I find that incredibly insulting. Let mem accept that there are people born to their sex who are unacceptably masculine. That's for men to sort out amongst themselves.

Trans-men are trying to reinforce gender constraints, not break them down as they claim to be.
THis is at odds with feminism.

Feminists are trying to expand what a person born into a particular gender can do, how they can live, and how they should look.
But that doesn't mean they can change their sex. WOmen will always have the additional shite connected to their biology, which they can't avoid. A trans-man can still be raped resulting in pregnancy. They will still be born into society as a girl.. There is an essential difference that trans-women are trying to gloss over.

Poggles, "She is saying,isn't she, that she realises there is a whole area of experience of being a woman that she doesn't share and saying that this call for realism and humility on the part of trans women."

I do feel you're grasping at straws now. It took her twenty fucking years to realise that maybe women face oppression for being women . She used her privileged status as an XY person, which comes with an in-grained sense of entitlement, to force her way into an all-women's college, which had been set up to help women under patriarchy. She took the place of a female. How the fuck do we know that she deeply feels that she's a woman? She obviously had no idea what it's really like to be a woman and was only interested that people called her "her". This is a very narcisstic view of the world. And even if she did believe she was a woman, how do we know more XY people aren't going to pop up and appropriate for themselves the tiniest privileges that women have fought for. If women object (Greer resigned) they're accused of bigotry. THis is a very male way to behave, don't you think?

hmm, rephrase:
Let men accept that there are people born to their sex who are unacceptably (to them) feminine.

"Having said that it probably wouldn't have bothered me that I might not be treated like a woman,as the idea that men and women should be treated differently would also have been foreign to me... "

Exactly, trans-women want women to be treated differently by the patriarchy. Feminists are fighting against this type of thing. THe academic was offended that they might not want to treat her like a woman

Sorry, those hmms are not aimed at you Poggles, just the general fucked-upness of it all.

Yes, I agree with Sakura that the academic in question wants there to be a greater division between the genders in areas such as academic projects, where feminists are actually pushing in the opposite direction.

She is right that someone born female in the same work situation would only have their status as 'woman' rejected on a symbolic level, but that is because being a woman is symbolic - it doesn't really exist, and that is what she fails to grasp. By refusing to look at the real binary - that of the reality of the female and the symbolism of woman, she never addresses sexism properly, and in fact describes it as 'simple.'

I suspect that is because she doesn't really care about sexism. Her comments on that work meeting are pretty clearly acknowledging that the existence of sexism and the reinforcement of rigid gender roles actually benefit her.

"Her comments on that work meeting are pretty clearly acknowledging that the existence of sexism and the reinforcement of rigid gender roles actually benefit her. "

Wow, I missed that bit. Where did she say that?
Anyway, this is a Voila! moment, I feel. We have come to the root and we realise that trans-women and feminists' and females' interests completely clash.

And they want women to fight their fight for them?

Sneaky.

Ah, I see, yes it's pretty explicit in the general point (sorry, V late here where I am ).
Your post is very articulate, Milly. I read them and I think "Yes" ^that's what I meant.

Feel free to Hmmm at me ,Sakura! I have a feeling that we are never going to agree on this though...

"She is saying,isn't she, that she realises there is a whole area of experience of being a woman that she doesn't share and saying that this call for realism and humility on the part of trans women."
Isn't this exactly what you said you wanted trans women to do,further up the thread? Or have I misremembered?
I don't think this is clutching at straws - I have never said that trans women are either XX(obviously) or exactly the same in every other respect as female born women.I think that in our society where division on the basis of gender is strong,transsexuals should be able to be regarded legally as the sex they have transitioned to.I think the idea that they have excessive privilege because they are XY is absurd.In my reading so far I have found quotes from feminists about transsexuals which I find offensive,including the one from Germaine Greer - who I have always really admired.I haven't yet found anything from a trans woman claiming special privilege,or telling cis women how they should behave or feel.

MillyR,couldn't your comments in your last post apply to female born women too?

"We have come to the root and we realise that trans-women and feminists' and females' interests completely clash."
You have come to this moment! Some of us disagree - or at least I do!(and I know there are other feminists out there who also disagree.)

( I also think saying Rachael Padman forced her way into a women's college is inaccurate - she will have been appointed via normal channels I assume,not held the governing body at gunpoint till they agreed to appoint her.)

"Isn't this exactly what you said you wanted trans women to do,further up the thread? "

Pogles, got to go to bed now, but I don't really care what trans-women do. We are just arguing semantics here, unless you honestly don't understand the argument.
They are re-defining women, they are de-valuing women (hence the refusal to call them females), they are using male privilege to get where they want in women's world, they are gagging feminists who disagree with them, they are reducing women to a hole and a pair of tits and a few feminine attributes, they know the only way they can pretend they are women is by pretending women's biological an emotional truth doesn't exist.
As far as I'm concerned they can believe they're Napolean for all I care, which would probably be a lot safer for women.

Pogleswood, I didn't make either of the comments you have just attributed to me!

I have just been reading Julia Serano for the last two hours, and she has discussed at great length all of the things that make up femaleness, femininity and women. At no point does she ever mentioning the uterus, functioning breasts, contraception, abortion or any issue relating to women's reproductive health. Julia Serano even describes her penis as being a female body part.

You say that trans women have transitioned to a new sex. They haven't. They have undergone gender reassignment surgery - this has changed their gender, not their sex. Just because my reproductive organs are internal does not mean that they do not exist or do not matter.

A trans woman has the gender identity of woman. That is her choice. My gender identity is that I am female born. I consider myself to have a common bond with other female born people, whether they identify as women or trans men. The fact that trans men frequently still feel a common bond with other female born women is demonstrated by their presence in the lesbian community and in women only spaces.

Trans women do not have the same gender identity as me, and they are not the same sex as me. If they insist on taking over not just my gender identity but also my sex as their identity, I will follow the example of many radical feminists and start referring to my gender identity and disadvantaged group as being 'female born.'

I agree that women are not just their reproductive organs - they are so much more. But that does not mean that our reproductive organs are not part of who we are.

"but that is because being a woman is symbolic - it doesn't really exist, and that is what she fails to grasp. By refusing to look at the real binary - that of the reality of the female and the symbolism of woman, she never addresses sexism properly, and in fact describes it as 'simple.'

I suspect that is because she doesn't really care about sexism. Her comments on that work meeting are pretty clearly acknowledging that the existence of sexism and the reinforcement of rigid gender roles actually benefit her."

Sorry,Milly - this was the bit I meant - my post was ambiguous.Also sorry about the gender/sex thing I do understand the difference - was just posting too fast.
I have Julia Serano's book on order,so I'll see if reading that changes my mind.And I am stepping away from the thread now..

'Night,Sakura

Pogleswood, I hope you don't feel that this thread has become too heated or aggressive. I feel that it has been a good opportunity to think about these issues and feminism, and I don't feel that we need to all be in agreement on this or that it is damaging somehow to feminism if we don't all agree.

I also think that there is a great difference between debating what a high profile campaigner like Julia Serano has said about her arguments with the US lesbian community and feminists, and the way any of us would interact with trans women we know. I know two trans women and have no reason to believe they think the same way as Julia Serano, nor do I feel it right to question or challenge them or make assumptions about what they believe simply because they are trans women.

No,MillyR,not too heated or aggressive,but thanks for asking! It has been an interesting thread,thinking about the issues,even if it has been a bit heated in places - I'm finding that with a lot of the Feminism threads.

I was just hoping you and Sakura weren't finding me too bloody minded about it all...

Pogleswood, no, I think you have explained your points very clearly.

tortoiseonahalfshell and Pogleswood - cheers for your patience and all your comments on this thread. You'll understand this post questioningtransphobia.wordpress.com/2009/09/16/the-biology-of-forms/ and others on the same blog.

Sakura - my genitals are none of your business. A couple of links for you:

www.derailingfordummies.com/

ourcatastrophe.tumblr.com/post/757132421/ok-so-here-are-the-main-things-for-now-i-dont

For the parents on this thread:

ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/
www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/

www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.aspx

www.transactiveonline.org/gender_identity_new.html

www.gires.org.uk/index.php

www.safeschoolscoalition.org/RG-gender_nonconforming_trans_youth.html

transkids.synthasite.com/teaching-resources.php

Which aspects of the derailing do you think pertinent to this thread earwicga?

Actually a list of links really pisses me off....debate your point instead of treating us all like a bunch of students and referring us to 'further readings'....

linking to 'derailing for dummies' = handy way to call someone prejudiced without having to risk actually saying it and getting your post deleted.

unfortunately puts people off reading the rest of the links in your list.

Thanks people - missed that one...nice, and this is the person who got other peoples's posts removed

it is becoming blindingly obvious that earwicga doesn't have a point.
Not understanding radical feminists' point does not equate to having a "point" of your own.

And it doesn't suprise me that some feminists have taken up the fight against radical feminists on behalf of trans-women. Rape apologists always crop up on the rape threads shouting Dittany down with their rape myths. Anyone can call themselves a feminist. LOts of 'feminists' support prostitution, pornography, the 'right' to cut up their body.LOts of women were against universal suffrage for women. Yet others believe the man in their life has a right to beat them up and blame themselves for his actions.
Many are men-pleasers but most simply have an inability to understand just how dehumanized females are in the eyes of males. YOu'd have to dehumanize a person to believe their reality doesn't exist as trans-women believe of females.
I didn't know that trans-men move in lesbian circles but that makes sense to me and I welcome it.
Patriarchy refuses to believe that trans-women are a member of their sex. That is where trans-womens' real fight lies.

women's

"I know two trans women and have no reason to believe they think the same way as Julia Serano, nor do I feel it right to question or challenge them or make assumptions about what they believe simply because they are trans women. "

That is true, and very reassuring. HOw do you think they regard females? Do you think they have empathy for females? Obviously claiming they are female displays a lack of empathy.

"linking to 'derailing for dummies' = handy way to call someone prejudiced without having to risk actually saying it and getting your post deleted."

Hardly. If you had clicked into the link you would see it is about privilege.

earwicga, Do you have a point?

Trans women are in the privileged position of being born as males under patriarchy.

1. How can females benefit from a movement where certain XY people claim to be women, thereby reinforcing the patriarchal view that women have no distinct sex of their own and are defined by their lack of penis? Simultaneously, patriarchy rejects trans-women because they do not want to expand what it means to be male and because they do not fit the mould of a 'man': they are deemed to belong to the general 'otherness' of the female sex.

Moreover, as radical feminists attempt to break down the gender constructs, trans-women are busy working against them-- in the opposite direction. Trans-women want to be defined as women and want the gender constructs to remain in place.

WHile I can empathise with your plight, and would happily join you in breaking down patriarchy, please give me a sign you understand that the notion of a "gender continuum" is not a good way forward for females, although it would certainly benefit trans-women as a group.

If you don't answer my questions as a whole, but cherry-pick the odd line I'm done.

sorry, don't mean to say that varying feminist views are not as valid as each other. No political movement shares the same views on everything. I'm just getting tired of being told that radical feminists' views are not valid.

hardly. If you had clicked into the link you would see it is about privilege.

lol and arf at people born with the male sex, raised as men, benefitting from everything that it means to be a man and who now wish to define what being a woman is accusing others of privilege

i would suggest that tran women copting 'woman', trying top set the agenda for feminists, belitllingwomen's real experiences, including those of misogyny could also be called derailling, and is also born of a privilege that makes them feel entitled them to set the agenda and decide the terms of any debate they enter

so, www.deraillingfordummies.com right back atcha!