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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why so many female critics of feminism?

145 replies

SweetDreamerGirl · 05/06/2010 17:55

Are female critics against the entire concept of feminism or are they mainly against specific details?

I suspect that some of the anti-feminism-as-a-concept women have bought into the myth that feminists are trying to steal society from men, castrating men into oblivion. Stealing is bad and women should not do such a bad thing. After all, that would be so un-ladylike and un-feminine.

What motivates such a women to support her own discrimination/oppression? They seem determined to stick up for the rights of men who are not currently oppressed but whom they assume would become oppressed in a feminist people-centred (i.e. female AND male-friendly) world. They seem to expect feminism to contiue to make the mistakes of the patriarchal past, with dominance of one group over the other, but they lack evidence for that assertion. Perhaps they also mistakenly equate feminism with lesbianism with all the homophobia that entails? Personally, I equate feminism more with not wanting to be a doormat.

One problem I have with women dismissing feminism-as-a-whole is that it implies to me that men are seen as the legitimate owners of society in the first place. I challenge that and think men do not have legitimate ownership of the "man's world" that we find ourselves inhabiting.

I have respect for some women who are against specific "policy details" of feminism - it's a fair political/operational difference of opinion. Perhaps these women are not actually anti-feminist, merely unwilling to call themselves feminists.

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SweetDreamerGirl · 10/06/2010 13:00

Checking my previous post, I feel I should share that, yes I really DO know how to spell "patriarchy", but then I actually have a hard time typing "feminism" some of the time, with noisy distractions around the room where I am typing my post, a phenomenon familiar to quite a few Mumsnetters, it seems. and

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SweetDreamerGirl · 10/06/2010 13:05

Prolesworth, I hope my post did not come across as a rant. I wrote it very calmly, not in anger.

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Prolesworth · 10/06/2010 13:09

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SweetDreamerGirl · 10/06/2010 13:17

Prolesworth, thanks for the reassuring comments. I've held back too much for too long and it got me nowhere.

Another tactic used against women is "make women internalise their problems". Another double whammy - men have less "whinging" or "nagging" to listen to and women are eaten up with low self-esteem and depression.

Better out than in!

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Prolesworth · 10/06/2010 13:34

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wukter · 10/06/2010 13:38

I do agree with you SweetDreamerGirl, that the patriarchy has misrepresented Feminism as it?s most ?extreme? manifestation.
That happens in all political movements, for example the ruling class tries to represent anyone leftwing as a Stalinist.
Again, totally agreeing with you regarding judging things on a case by case basis. Now, the perception is that feminists don?t do that, they come from a specific anti-men angle. Most people recognise injustice and don?t agree with that. I have seen examples of that bias, some feminists do. So the proportion of anti-men feminists are completely overblown, people new to feminism query this and (understandably) exasperated feminists dismiss this as The Poor Men argument. It?s a valid viewpoint, but not the main issue. And to get back to your original question SweetDreamerGirl, I think that?s probably a part of female opposition to feminism, not many women are anti-father, anti-husband, anti-son. And that?s what they see. A Little Knowledge Is A Dangerous Thing. To appeal to more women, feminism has to break through that representation.

I am unfamiliar with feminism in a political/ activist sense but I am not neutral. I am a feminist. In daily life I don?t accept gender based assumptions or treatment nor do I give it. Which is a perfectly valid feminism, IMO.

meltedchocolate · 10/06/2010 14:07

I haven't read the thread. Just wanted to answer the OP.

I am anti for the following reasons:

I do not like that feminists have critised my CHOICE to stay at home and raise my child. Naturally it is the woman's role to bear and raise children. I have never said that men cant do it and we are fortunate in our society that it is possible for women to go back to work and that men can stay at home BUT that is only because of where we have reached. Women have the breasts to feed and the hips to bear and carry. I have heard many feminists deny and dispute this. Feminism forgets through it's desperation to be equal to celebrate and enjoy and embrace our differences! I think it's a blessing to be a woman! I have no desire to be like men... I agree that we should be equal in importance but I do believe the role of men and women is naturally different and I believe that we are emotionally different for a reason. I think men and women compliment each other and don't see the need for that to be changed, which I think feminism does because of the way most feminists go about trying to create equality. I am very grateful for the women that worked to give me a vote etc but I think the modern feminists are taking things too far. I have grown up with this feminism idea forced down my throat and I don't agree with a fair bit of it. I have discussed feminism a lot and there has always been a foul and repulsive attitude that the feminists seem to carry around with them. (thi is my experience and I accept this wont always be the case) I think the main ideas about equality were good ones but think they have been scewed, twisted and largely forgotten to the point were women deny who and what they are and almost act ashamed of it and I think that is very very sad! I have been called a disgrace to women and a doormat simply because I think its a wonderful thing that I have the ability to go through pregnancy and labour and have this undenable emotional thing to my child that men don't have in quite the same way. Of course men can be amazing fathers and husbands and there are some women that somehow ignore this naturl maternal feeling and abandon thier children but I am talking in general here. When feminists start to deny things like that I lose a lot of respect for them because they have forgotten being a women in the fight for equality. I want to be equal too but don't try and take away my womanhood at the same time please and thank you. Oh and for all those that think my opinions must have come from only ever having met nice men.... I have been emotionally abused by several men and recently have been walked out on by the father of my child. It has nothing to do with only ever having known nice men (and I do know several) I see it simply as common sense.

Like I said I do agree that men and women should have equality, I guess my problem is just with certain aspects of feminism and am open to be corrected

Apologies for awful grammar and punctuation, I'm in a rush!!

threelittlepebbles · 10/06/2010 14:20

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swallowedAfly · 10/06/2010 15:35

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ElephantsAndMiasmas · 10/06/2010 15:46

Hi Melted. I think you might find Sakura's posts on this thread interesting, if you have read them already. Believing that women have a special vocation in their ability to bear and raise children doesn't put you in opposition to feminism.

If some women criticise you for choosing to look after your children full time, maybe they're frustrated at needing/wanting to work in a patriarchal society that tells women that they are "abandoning" their children by going out to work. Maybe they think your life, as well as your attitude to working women, is something getting between them and the equality they seek. They may be mistaken in this but I don't think it's fair to expect tolerance from others if you don't extend it to them in return.

I don't think feminists want to remove womanhood - that would kind of spoil the point of the movement! Actually they want women to be able to do anything they want to do to fulfil their own brains and hearts - whether it is being supported (maternity pay for instance) while pregnant or raising children, or being representatives in government, or being an astronaut. Maybe all of those things in the one lifetime.

swallowedAfly · 10/06/2010 15:53

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SweetDreamerGirl · 10/06/2010 16:21

Meltedchocolate, I was interested to read your response to my original post. Thanks for taking the time to outline your opinions.

I hope you will stick around to explore the many issues in feminism, by building on the basis that clearly women and men do not have equality.

I too think men and women are different, but not as different as opponents of feminism have insisted over the centuries. For example, most work, sport, financial independence, fertility control, voting rights, education and so on that women now have are solely or largely the result of feminists winning the argument that women are capable. Even the history of medicalisation of pregnancy and chilbirth by male doctors is partly linked to doubts about women's ability to handle these natural female processes.

I struggle to see where any improvements to make the sexes equal can come from other than feminism. If there is another social or political way of improving the lot of women worldwide, then I am very keen to hear about it.

The forces that keep women down are the "Establishment", that set of priviliged powerful people and their structures which happens to be male-dominated, which is usually referred to by feminists as the "Patriarchy". They keep women down because it threatens their advantage. Ordinary men, our fathers, brothers, partners, husbands and sons are also kept down by the establishment, but that doesn't involve the sex issues. Men who are not at the top of the social heap tend be have a hard time at the hands of the ruling men through other means. It's a class struggle rather than a sex struggle. Disempowered men fight for improved conditions too. I say good luck to them. In contrast to the "trying to turn women into men" jibe that is constantly thrown at feminists, I haven't heard anyone with power accusing men of wanting to be like women because they want a pay rise or paternity leave or to be stay-at-home house-husbands? (Having said that, a man told me recently "There's only one thing more unwelcome in business than a woman asking for time off to look after her sick children, and that's a man asking for time off in those circumstances.") Rather than say "poor men, I won't fight against the establishment for women's rights, because I feel sympathy with men who have a hard time with the current setup", I say "men fight your battle, and I shall support you". Hey, I'm a woman, so I can multi-task! We are ALL being messed about! I'm NOT paranoid, the Patriarchy ARE out to get me! As some posts earlier in this thread mentioned, feminism is more anti-men-in-power than anti-men, but propaganda of the opponents of feminism is very effective. "Feminist" has been wrongly equated with "man-hater" for at least 40 years and counting.

Have any feminists personally criticised your own specific choice to stay at home? I am aware that feminist activists have criticised the decision of stay-at-home mums as a group to stay at home, but I have seen that in general society-wide terms not as an attack on individual women. The reasons for the criticism by feminists include factors like SAHM work not being valued or recognised by the patriarchy as significant a contribution to society as paid work outside the home. Where did your choice to either stay at home or work come from? Until about 1970, there was no choice for many women e.g. pregnat teachers were forced to give up their teaching career. Feminists campained successfully to make sure there was the choice that exists today.

Four of the aims of feminism are:

  1. reproductive choice
  2. access to childcare
  3. equal pay
  4. freedom from sexual violence

The list of objectives of mainstream feminism does NOT include turning women into men, turning women into man-haters, emasculating men for the fun of it, or making men superfluous to requirements. (Men are vital for the survival of the human race, forseeable future, because without them, with artificial sperm etc, we would die out as a species due to the severely reduced gene pool that situation would entail). There is so much anti-feminist propaganda out there!

Any person who works towards these goals is a feminist in my opinion, whether a woman or man. That actually links back to the last paragraph in my original post.

"I have respect for some women who are against specific "policy details" of feminism - it's a fair political/operational difference of opinion. Perhaps these women are not actually anti-feminist, merely unwilling to call themselves feminists."

If you can spare some time, I do recommend that you take a closer look at this and other similar threads in the forum because they might put more "flesh on the bones" of the issues for you.

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ElephantsAndMiasmas · 10/06/2010 16:22

I've just been reading "The Feminine Mystique" which was written in 1964 all about the pattern of women going "back home" and being housewives. They were being raised to it from birth, sent to college (if at all) to find a man to marry, then expected to settle down and be totally satisfied looking after husband and children forever. Some were. Others weren't, and it fell apart for a lot more of them when their children left home. Suddenly they were left at 45ish with no qualifications, no experience of work, no contact with the outside world.

It really made me think about the SAH mum thing, because however much you love your kids, (and not necessarily if they're SN) they're going to move out to their own lives sooner or later. If your value as a woman is in your ability to procreate and take care of your kids, what happens to you afterwards, when you go through the menopause and your children leave home? I believe that women have the full compliment of abilities and ambitions that you would expect in any human being. You don't die when your kids leave home, nor do your kids waste away if you spend time working while they're at home.

SweetDreamerGirl · 10/06/2010 16:50

wukter, Nice to know I gave you a laugh too about my name acronym.

I'm glad to hear that the book details are of interest. The section of the book on the femininities is short but its points are very well made - quality rather than quantity. While I was reading it, I was reminded of that classic John Cleese/Ronnie Barker/Ronnie Corbett comedy sketch about "He looks down on me but I look down on him..."

There's plenty of other thought-proviking body-image discussion in other sections of the book too.

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SweetDreamerGirl · 10/06/2010 16:56

Prolesworth, thanks for the link to the anti-patriarchy blog. I'm off to take a look!

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SweetDreamerGirl · 10/06/2010 17:08

Oops, just to clarify one of my earlier posts, any person who works towards the four numbered goals I listed is a feminist in my opinion. (not the turning women into men or man-hating etc! )

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swallowedAfly · 10/06/2010 17:12

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swallowedAfly · 10/06/2010 17:13

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dittany · 10/06/2010 18:33

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dittany · 10/06/2010 18:37

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antoinettechigur · 10/06/2010 18:43

wrt acceptable displays of female sexuality, I cant think of anything within feminism that rejects women "displaying" their sexuality. Can anyone give any examples?

Not really sure what the phrase means tbh. I guess I could get a "favourite positions" t-shirt made up and see how people respond to me wearing it. Not sure that there would be objections of the grounds of feminism . Taste, maybe.

swallowedAfly · 10/06/2010 19:06

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dittany · 10/06/2010 19:15

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talk2graeme · 10/06/2010 23:54

Hi, I ended up coming to this page because people were attacking me via facebook claiming I am some how anti- feminism, so I want to put the record straight.
Those people, have got me totaly wrong I don't say anything for or against feminism, What I am doing is fighting for change with in New Zealand Child protection Services, Called CYF. My webpage is here http://graemea.snap.net.nz While I am in a Men?s Right?s Group that is not nor should it ever be at the expance of Womans Rights. Given I am a qualified social Worker and advocate, I have actually had to help both side of the debate to gain equality. I avoid the feminism debate because I think its is mostly missunderstood about what it is or isen?t about and I don?t have time to go into that now. My own facebook group is here: www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=162963230683 if people want to read it. The Men?s Rights on FaceBook I don?t agree with everything said and done by this group, and they might say the same thing about me, however I will fight for what we can agree on and work with them and they with I. Cheers Graeme Axford

blackcurrants · 11/06/2010 01:56

This is going back to a different section of this thread, but for pro-sex feminism, which I think MillyR was asking about (note: this doesn't mean pro-pornification) it's worth checking out "Yes means Yes: Visions of female sexual power and a world without rape" - there's a book and a blog. I found it extremely interesting, and it got me thinking about how wonderful sex could be if we got rid of a whole lot of patriarchal hangups about 'good' and 'bad' sex, and thought about win/win sex, with respect and consideration and, above all, enthusiastic and informed consent....

[hippy dreamer emoticon]