Erasure of Women from Public/Cultural life:

[blackcurrants]

I thought this column in the guardian, "I'm tired of being the token woman" was a high quality rant, and thought you might enjoy a read, if you haven't seen it.

Dittany, women have seized opportunities once the shackles are off? In what arena?

For a lot of the women in my workplace who have dropped out, you could not pay them to go into senior management. I don't think it is a glass ceiling thing. They just did not want the unpredictable hours and the intrusion into their personal life.

ie to them, the money was not worth it.

Rattling good read, that article. Good stuff

When women opt out (or the fire in the belly gets extinguished) it has two effects:

1. Fewer women at senior levels in the workplace
2. Men spending less time at home

It's the second effect that gets ignored by commentators. I have never NOT EVER seen a male colleague leave work unexpectedly to collect a sick child. He doesn't have to, because his wife/partner is prepared to do it. Either because she is staying at home and therefore expected to do it, or because her job is of lesser consequence than her husband's

It's a vicious circle IMO. I really do think that rules around shared maternity/paternity leave would be helpful to break this down.

Was the money not worth it to the women, but it was worth it to the men, anything to do with the fact that the men were getting paid more?

Quattro, agree with you re men leaving work. Only once seen it where a man left work for a sick child, but sick child had been rushed to hospital. He wouldn't gone anywhere for anything less than a visit to A&E.

Happysmiley, in my workplace, the money was equal for men and women. The measure of success is largely transparent.

I don't know about women in general but for me having children changed my priorities somewhat. Work was no longer the focus of all my energies, just a means to earn money to provide for my family. If my babies need me then work can get stuffed.
I hadn't really considered it before but now you mention it my DH has definitely become more motivated to work hard since he became a Father.

Quattro, just last week, my dh left work suddenly to collect the dcs because childcare broke down and I could not do it because something blew up at my work. He had no choice.

I think it is common for the older guard to have wives that give up their careers. Not a given for the up and coming. Cultural shifts are happening, albeit slowly, and IMO for the better.

dittany, I was answering happysmiley's question: "Was the money not worth it to the women, but it was worth it to the men, anything to do with the fact that the men were getting paid more?"

This is money paid on promotion. ie if a man was promoted v. woman was promoted to the same position, would they get the same pay. I answered 'yes'.

I have worked hard in my very male dominated profession for over 10 years. I am damn good at my job. I've never progressed any further than second level management, despite changing companies three times. I've been overlooked for promotion on numerous occassions.

Our unit recently found out we had a new area manager. My boss's exact words were 'i'm not very happy about that'. I asked him why, he said he wasn't comfortable being managed by a female, and that she'd problably want to sleep with him.

I am seriously considering changing profession as I fear I will never be taken seriously.

dittany, for me personally, it is an hours thing. There are 24 hours in a day, how do I want to cut it?

I understand that women are asked to make male-type sacrifices into their personal life they are not prepared to make. But structuring society in a way that rewards women yet not require them to make those time sacrifices only works if NO ONE else is prepared to make those sacrifices.

So long as someone 'spoils the market' and starts working crazy hours, they and their organisation will naturally pull ahead and be more successful. It is not a male or female thing. It is just what it is. If you are prepared to work harder than your competition, you rule.

You cannot stop someone else more driven from working harder. You cannot begrudge their success.

It is a fact that society is structured that men are more prepared to spend time at work than women. But you cannot change the fact that harder work means better business.

So the solution is men to spend less time at work and more time at home. Because it is not possible to prevent all people from working crazy hard.

At my very "masculine" firm, you just had to shit on someone, didn't matter if it was a man or a woman. There wasn't any sex discrimination involved. (In fact, there were so few women, you'd be better off trying to find a man to shit on.)

dittany, I work in a partnership structure which is flat and fairly transparent. It is unusual and distinct from the usual corporate structure.

I don't buy into this 'shitting' on people, male or female, to get ahead. My observation is that getting into senior management is through very hard work (given) and personal qualities (very individual).

blueshoes, sometimes working longer hours doesn't actually increase productivity. There is a huge culture of presenteeism which suits men but doesn't benefit businesses.

The solution is to make men spend less time at work and more at home. Why are we allowing men to stay in the office? Why aren't we expecting them to do more at home?

And luck, of course

happysmiley, with blackberries, people no longer have to stay in the office. Juniors have more need for 'facetime', but seniors are more peripatetic.

They do work though, on holidays and out of office hours. I know because they answer my emails at all times of the day!

Happysmiley, I agree women should not let men off. They need to make their other halves pull their weight in the domestic sphere.

As a start, they should not marry male chauvinist pigs to begin with.