Erasure of Women from Public/Cultural life:

[blackcurrants]

I thought this column in the guardian, "I'm tired of being the token woman" was a high quality rant, and thought you might enjoy a read, if you haven't seen it.

happysmiley, are women less committed? I think they don't see the point of going for one promotion after another a lot of the times.

It is undeniably harder for women - I think pre-children, women work every bit as hard as men. But qualities such as (unjustified) self-confidence, self-promotion, the need to dominate meetings or win the argument or be seen as the authority on a subject come more naturally to men. Unless women have the same drive, it is not surprising that once children arrive that they don't feel the rewards justify the sacrifices to push forward with the same intensity.

At this point, men start to overtake, particularly since this coincides with the early thirties, when most people's careers start to consolidate and reach the hurdle between middle and senior management.

So women stagnate or drop out, and men continue upwards. Generally.

I agree, these qualities didn't come naturally to me. I had to learn them as an adult (and am still learning them) whereas men are usually taught them as children. But you can learn them, and they are of huge benefit personally, not just professionally (esp the self confidence).

Rewards are not as great because many women don't get the same buzz as men do from dominating a situation etc. More sacrifices because women tend to feel more responsible for the domestic sphere which will suffer if they put in the hours on the workfront.

I am speaking generally, of course.

I don't know about that, happysmiley. Women can do very well up to middle management, through mastery of their work and hard work. The buzz as you say.

But to get to senior management, this is where the male qualities I describe come into it. I have worked in firms that are at the top of their game globally.

The women who make it to that level are remarkably the same as the men in their demeanour. Those who had more 'feminine' style did not really stick around.

This is just what I observe. Not imputing any value judgment on it.

Women can enjoy being in charge, I agree. But not as much as men and not to the extent that their family life suffers to the degree that men take for granted.

Happy to be accused of stereotyping. Disclaimer: not every woman fits my description, nor every man. But this is generally true. Read the millions of threads on mn ...

The solution is for men to step up to the domestic plate. Not for society to change to positively discriminate in favour of women in the workplace.

I've worked for few different organisations in the same industry. I think it varies dramatically.

At my last place of work, senior (and middle) managers were quite frankly brutish. It played to male strenghts. Women would take on the traditionally masculine traits to advance. I hated it so I moved.

My current employer is different. There aren't any more women at senior levels, but the atmosphere is less "masculine".

Why would two companies in the same industry be equally successful, but very different in the personal traits they value? And why, even in the more "feminine" organisation, would there be very few senior women? Where did they all go? Why did they all "drop out"?

Of course, they do, but they're not.

do = should

To get to senior management (disclaimer again: at the places I have worked), it was also an hours requirement.

It was given that everyone in the running had ability, but they also had to have commitment and commitment meant being available at the end of a blackberry at the very least, at all times of the day/week.

And like to be in charge. And dominate meetings.

And be the authority and be authoritative. And be good at influencing people.

And like to make decisions where the buck stops and to defend that decision in the face of opposition.

I completely respect any woman (Xenia?) who enjoys this.

However, they would be in the minority.

Happysmiley, I agree that workplaces have different cultures.

The firms I work are top tier globally. It is a recurring theme amongst the handful of firms in this group that top women are in a minority.

The firms the next tier down have proportionally more women represented at the top. And so on.

It seems the most brutish firms are the ones the succeed the greatest in the most competitive field.

The firms that are slightly more cuddly are not as successful (as in male terms). Coincidentally, they also have more senior women amongst their ranks.

Chicken or egg? I am genuinely interested.

ditany, it not enough or even necessary to be 'good' to succeed. I think we all know that.

All the personal traits that you describe are ones that people learn, if they are taught. They are not the exclusive preserve of men. I've learnt most of them myself as I said above. The men I work with have learnt them. They are not innate in men. If these are the skills needed to do the job, why aren't women being taught them?

Re the hours, I agree, for some roles you do need to be "on call" all the time. If you do need to be on call, why are men able to do this and not women? What about jobs were you don't have to be on call? Why are they still dominated by men?

Both the "masculine" and "feminine" are equally successful by the way. Neither has the edge on the other.

Happysmiley, good point about women being taught the skills. A few of these firms have put in place training programmes for women about to make the leap into senior management. Will be interesting to see if that solves things.

I personally think it is a fire-in-the-belly thing in the workplace that women tend to lack.

Just my observation, dittany. I agree they are stereotypes based on my observation. I am allowed to say that, aren't I?

But then that takes me back to the beginning. Why do women have that fire in the belly up until the time they have children, what extinguishes it?

And why do men get more fire in their bellies when children come along?

(I say men get more, because if I remember correctly order in which people get paid the most goes:

men with kids
men with out kids
women with out kids
women with kids.)