How is it possible to be a feminist and support the sex industry?

[Molesworth]

I've just been reading this article from the guardian. Young girls are being sold to brothel keepers and made to take steroids so that they look older than they really are.

All my instincts say that the sex industry is just plain wrong. I know some feminists think it's OK (although obviously they wouldn't support practices like those described in the article). Are there any sex industry supporting feminists here? What's the rationale?

so you two sockpuppets are friends, manda ?

not just two random, unconnected sex-workers who just happened to be passing by this thread in your crinolines, on the way to your boudoir ???

and felt that you needed to put us all right in our misapprehensions that working as a prostitute has to be one of the grimmest of grim things possible

and that the degradation that many of these women suffer is not a sad reflection on our society as a whole ?

no ?

all-righty then

and fyi, I have never used those ridiculous words you referred to

at the risk of giving these two puppets more wank-fodder, I rather enjoy a bit of cunnilingus

2 hours would be torture...and I challenge anyone to tell me differently

If it takes 2 hours he is doing it all wrong and could be also in danger of having DVT in his tongue.

unfair claig ?

don't be silly

as one of these sockpuppets pointed out earlier..."don't forget that people can read what you have written..."

typer beware, I say

Anyfucker: But not all women who exchange sex for money consider it the grimmest thing possible. Some women would rather sell sex than scrub floors or be a bailiff because as far as they are concerned, the moneyh's better, the risks of physical or verbal abuse lower and the work sits better with their consciences than some other jobs.
Also, just because you or some other women don't like prolonged sessions of cunnilingus doesn['t mean that all women would find it 'torture'.

Whatever the real identities of Manda and Misshoney, they are not saying anything I haven't heard other actual, real, live sex workers say. But any women who say they are selling sex and not coerced into it (or like sexual practices that some posters insist no woman likes because they themselves dislike these things) are always quickly told that they are dishonest, must really be men, deluded or malicious. Sex work is not invariably a living hell for all sex workers, and acting as though it is, isn't helpful.

< thinks >

< puts self in scenario >

nope, sgb, you ain't convinced me

I didn't refer to your friend as a fuckhole Manda. 'She' asked for direct arguments without using tired phrases. I said that she markets and sells herself as a fuckhole and that this act contributes to the male perception of women as objects rather than people.

Two hours of cunnilingus has to be a man's idea of a woman's good time. Schoolboy error.

Anyfucker: don't know which scenario you are putting yourself in, but if it doesn't appeal to you then don't engage in it. However, why do you think that your perceptions of a situation and your reaction to a set of circumstances or a particular physical situation are so much the correct responses that any woman who says she has different responses is deluded or lying?

SGB even if these are genuine sex workers as opposed to pro prostitution lobbyists, their experience has to be out of the ordinary when compared to the horrific experience of the majority. At any rate, when the question is how can you be a feminist who supports the sex industry, they don't help themselves when they crow about sleeping with our husbands.

Misshoneymoon and mandamumu do you have anything constructive to say about feminism as it relates to the sex industry? Anything about empowering women? Anything about equality of opportunity? Anything at all??

sgb, I am not the only woman on this thread who thinks these jokers are on a wind-up

trying to convince women that 2 hours of cunnilingus administered by a very skilled man is the height of women's pleasure ?

give over

So far the only thing either of them has said in direct relation to the thread title is to get Andrea Dworkin's name wrong.

It's like going onto a vegetarianism thread specifically to bang on about loving rare steak. They might be real 'whores' as they like to describe themselves, but they aren't feminists. Which rather undermines their authority on a thread about feminism.

Just because an experience is unusual doesn;'t mean the person claiming to have it is a liar or a fantasist.
And (going back to the OP) one of the reasons why I as a feminist find it important to defend aspects of the sex industry is that the sex industry encompasses a lot of different things and different ideas, it;s not this one monolithic instution where the only role for women is that of abused, enslaved, drug-addicted street sex worker.

But doesn't the stereotypical image of the happy hooker just confirm the myth that women are happy to be used by men for male purposes? The convenient idea that some women enjoy being prostitutes (which must be true yes) makes it that much harder to work towards liberating those women who are not happy. You must admit that those women exist also.

The whole sex industry is built upon the illusion that flatters men into thinking they are amazingly powerful lovers and that women can't wait to get fucked by them. Because we're all dirty bitches who love it aren't we? Unfortunately, the romanticisation of prostitution reinforces that dangerous belief.

I think you're overstating the diversity of the sex industry (or sex industries, if you prefer), SGB. The sex industries will cater to anything that will make a profit. But still the vast majority seems to involve highly stereotyped women being men's fucktoys in seemingly ever more violent ways.

Well I am loving this discussion. Thank you op for bring it up.

Grandpoobah I bow down to you. You articulate my thoughts much better than I think them!

Oh, and WRT Paul Holmes having a partial view of prostitution, one can say exactly the same about the 'happy hookers' on this thread. That was kinda my point. Both could be said to speak with some authority on the issue. Why then should we accept the 'happy hooker' view as representative of the whole? There's enough plausible evidence out there to make me doubt that the majority of sex workers are as happy in their work as our friends on this thread claim to be.

Solid is the only person talking sense on this thread.

I loathe the buying and selling of sex, and am revolted by the abuses of the sex industry, but I won't tell any consenting adult what she can or cannot do with her own body.

And telling a woman how she ought to feel about something - or worse, telling her that her perceptions and feelings are mistaken - this is patronising illiberalism of the worst kind. How is this different to the patriarchal attitudes that feminists fought to overcome? Men telling women they didn't know what was best for them, that they were too weak and misguided to make their own choices?

If we want to rid the sex industry of abuse, then we have to legalise and regulate prostitution. What we're seeing now is the product of criminalisation, and it ain't working.

There's no point telling you where we came from . It's not an open forum like this one. You can't pop over for a look. It's for female escorts only btw.

Hey, sod the patriarchal society. I don't need men to tell me what do do/think/feel/whatever. I have women for that, radical feminists in particular.

Whether the majority of sex workers are happy or unhappy is immaterial. Society makes decisions on whether certain activities are harmful to society or not. Many herion users are happy to take heroin and many heroin pushers make a comfortable living supplying heroin. Many agree with MissHoneyMoon that it is a better choice to gain high financial rewards for a few hours' work, rather than slogging it out in a nine to five job. What they think is really immaterial. I think the real question is, is their activity harmful to society or not?

We have a small army of trafficked and oppressed women whom we keep in a locked cellar. If they don't find us at least one prostitution thread each day, they don't get fed.

Why does it matter? I was already a member here anyway.

Is it so terrible that we want to balance the argument as best we can? You don't have to change your ideas, but you can be open to listening to the ideas of others.
I'm not going to tell you that the sex industry is all Belle de Jour, it's not. However, it's a lot closer (in general) to that than it is to the portrayal via media. We are not all crack whores on street corners.

Men don't actually tell me what to do. I'm much more likely to tell them what to do tbh.
They're more likely to to ask whether I would mind if they do something, or would I mind doing something.

I'm sorry if that doesn't sit well with you, but it's the way it is.

You show me a girl in my area who is in trouble and on the game when she doesn't want to be and GENUINELY wants help to change her life, then I will help in any way I can.